Betting amounts behind multiple limpers

[Deceitful_Frank]

Ok I have come around to the idea that 3-4X the bb plus one bb per limper is the way to go but what about if you are to act behind >2 limpers.

Ok lets take KJo for the sake of argument. All things being equal and standard at a FR table I will raise this hand from the CO 3.5X the bb plus one bb per limper. I would imagine many here might do the same with up to two limpers but once you are acting behing 3 or more, just adding another 5c or 10c just doesn't seem to cut it. I am now looking down at a hand that I really don't feel confortable about throwing in 35+c with and am tempting to over-limp and see a cheap flop, hoping for 2-pair or a straight draw... obviously this is bad!

Should I consider over-limping here or bet even more? like 50c to rreally punish the limpers and try to steal the button. Perhaps I should throw the hand away?

Thoughts?

EDIT: please don't answer with something like:

"never play KJo from the CO"

This would hardly be helpful and would completely miss the pont as the hand I am playing is pretty much irrelivent. It could be any one of half a dozen mediocre holdings best played from late position but not necessarily the button!

 

[ChuckTs]

Poker rules are 'general' for a reason. There's no reason you should stick to them like glue - there are always exceptions.

You can still thin the field out with 1 or 2 bbs fewer than the rule suggests. You're still charging them to see a flop, you're still getting value, and it's actually more appropriate value for your hand strength.

Your raise sizing should also change with stack sizes. If there's a shortstacker somewhere in there and you'd normally isolate with QJo, then you might want to slow down knowing that you'll be committed to call his potential limp-shove, and knowing you wouldn't be in great shape if that were the case.

 

[Deceitful_Frank]

Ok that makes sence. So perhaps and 1 bb per limper up to a maximum which is lower for weaker holdings but higher for stronger ones. I guess that if one or two of those limpers is short (they often are at 5NL Rush) I might be better to muck the marginal unsuited paint if they are playing with <40bb.

They do get quite shovey. Its a situation I OFTEN face and its frustrating as I never know whether I to call their limp-shove when I have say KQ or 77! I guess they profit from my indecision?!

Be great if I coulds assign ranges to those idiots that play so short and pull that all-in hair trigger any chance they get!

 

[ChuckTs]

Yep you definitely need to try and assign ranges for them in order to know what you're ready to stack with. Next time you stack a strong hand like JJ or AK or whatever, take note of what they're limp-shoving with. Same with when other people call them off, take notes notes notes.

After you see a good few of their hands you start to get a feel for what they're doing it with. Everybody's different, but you can make generalizations and go from there. Some guys limp T9o, then get pissed you raise them, so they shove. Some other guys limp the same range but only shove AJ+/88+ type ranges.

Once you get a general range for them, plug the worst you see them stack with into pokerstove, then mess with ranges for yourself to see what you can stack profitably.

 

[Numbuh 0ne]

There are a lot of other variables to consider in preflop raise size, most importantly skill, position, and stack sizes. If they are "bad" players you can generally bet more. If they are low on chips bet less. If your in the CO, you can usually bet less. Some people think that you will be able to bet less utg but i don't agree at 5nl because most don't understand positional advantage. The point is that the number of players in a pot isn't extremely important, there are other things to consider.

 

[Deceitful_Frank]

Ok well as I am a little tired tonight I've finished playing early and am having a play with poker tracker.

Over 43k hands of which I have raised pre-flop approx 9% I have faced a 3-bet shove all-in 218 times and of those opportunities I have called 43 times and backed down 175 times. Something tels me I may be missing out on some value here...

 

[ChuckTs]

It's less about missing value, more about leaving too much dead money on the table if that's the case.

Make sure you're filtering specifically for someone who has limp-shoved on you though. I'm not sure if it's just your wording or if it's your actual filter, but you want to be very specific and/or accurate when you're filtering so as not to draw the wrong conclusions.

 

[Deceitful_Frank]

I have filtered for a 3-bet shove, thats not always a limp shove?
maybe thats an open 3-bet shove
now I am getting confused
I guess open 3-bet shoving ranges are also useful but they could be different

...its late and I have been awake for 17 hours!

 

[Deceitful_Frank]

I am not sure that I can filter to differentiate between the open-3-bet-shove and the limp-3-bet shove.
I will have to filter for all called 3-bet shoves, take the 43 and put them in to seperate piles!

 

[Numbuh 0ne]

just open raise less with SS's in the hand

 

[ChuckTs]

That would be for someone opening, villain 3bet shoving, and you calling. Although that's a similar situation to getting limp-3bet, it's not the same. The ranges will be different.

Assuming you have HEM (if you have PT3 I can't help, not familiar with it), filter for action facing player: 1 limper and 2+ limpers, PFR = true, faced 3bet = true, position of 3bet = EP, MP and CO. I think that should do it.

 

[Deceitful_Frank]

Unfortunately I use PT3 but I appreciate your help. I have filtered them for open 3-bet shoves and limp 3-bet shoves combined. There seem to be a lot more of the former. I have gone though all 43 hands and recorded the info to a WMV file using my mic.

Tomorrow will get the open-3bet shoves typed up, Sort them in to stack size groups, average, tight and looser players, try to spot some patterns and get some ranges plugged in to poker stove

 

[fx20736]

Ok I have come around to the idea that 3-4X the bb plus one bb per limper is the way to go but what about if you are to act behind >2 limpers.

Ok lets take KJo for the sake of argument. All things being equal and standard at a FR table I will raise this hand from the CO 3.5X the bb plus one bb per limper. I would imagine many here might do the same with up to two limpers but once you are acting behing 3 or more, just adding another 5c or 10c just doesn't seem to cut it. I am now looking down at a hand that I really don't feel confortable about throwing in 35+c with and am tempting to over-limp and see a cheap flop, hoping for 2-pair or a straight draw... obviously this is bad!

Should I consider over-limping here or bet even more? like 50c to rreally punish the limpers and try to steal the button. Perhaps I should throw the hand away?

Thoughts?

EDIT: please don't answer with something like:

"never play KJo from the CO"

This would hardly be helpful and would completely miss the pont as the hand I am playing is pretty much irrelivent. It could be any one of half a dozen mediocre holdings best played from late position but not necessarily the button!

I find myself in this spot all the time, either in the CO or on the Button with a hand I would feel good about open raising but once there are limpers it changes the equation. At 2nl lots of fish limp/ call a raise with a huge range and when you whiff with your hand, like KJo and fish donk bets, then what? There not folding so you can't bluff. I have add the SB open raise and then call my BB 3bet and then call to the river because they paired the 4 in their hand.

Obviously all these weak Broadways are hard to play as Top Pair against most opponents so really you are hoping for 2pair or a straight draw. You only flop an OESD about 12% of the time and 2 pair about 2% so raising these against villains that don't fold is -EV.

I say limp behind. If you get squeezed by the button or the blinds you only invested 1 BB.

Similairly Rag Aces have the same problem in limped pots, IMO. It's one thing to steal from the button with A3o, it's another to raise a limper or two who may call and force you to fold. I have started playing with a rule about dealing with limpers on the button; I narrow my range a little, folding out some rag aces and offsuit connectors. I'll still play lots of suited connectors, 22 33 44 KJo QJo etc. but play fit/ flop with these or check behind as I can control the pot.

 

[WVHillbilly]

I find myself in this spot all the time, either in the CO or on the Button with a hand I would feel good about open raising but once there are limpers it changes the equation. At 2nl lots of fish limp/ call a raise with a huge range and when you whiff with your hand, like KJo and fish donk bets, then what? There not folding so you can't bluff. I have add the SB open raise and then call my BB 3bet and then call to the river because they paired the 4 in their hand.

Obviously all these weak Broadways are hard to play as Top Pair against most opponents so really you are hoping for 2pair or a straight draw. You only flop an OESD about 12% of the time and 2 pair about 2% so raising these against villains that don't fold is -EV.

I say limp behind. If you get squeezed by the button or the blinds you only invested 1 BB.

Similairly Rag Aces have the same problem in limped pots, IMO. It's one thing to steal from the button with A3o, it's another to raise a limper or two who may call and force you to fold. I have started playing with a rule about dealing with limpers on the button; I narrow my range a little, folding out some rag aces and offsuit connectors. I'll still play lots of suited connectors, 22 33 44 KJo QJo etc. but play fit/ flop with these or check behind as I can control the pot.

Actually TPGK with a hand like KJ can be played like the nuts as long as your bad opponent (if they're limp/calling they're bad) just keeps check / calling postflop. It's when they raise you at some point that a one pair hand is likely no longer good.

What you don't have to do though is raise it too big preflop. With a couple limpers even making your standard 4x type raise is fine when you're going to be IP postflop with a good, not great, hand. So a couple loose passives limp preflop and you just make a standard raise not adding anything for the limpers and you get both of them to call, that's a pretty good result. And because the preflop pot is rather large with money from multiple caller getting everything in the middle when you do flop the nuts (2pair+) is very easy.

 

[fx20736]

Actually TPGK with a hand like KJ can be played like the nuts as long as your bad opponent (if they're limp/calling they're bad) just keeps check / calling postflop. It's when they raise you at some point that a one pair hand is likely no longer good.

What you don't have to do though is raise it too big preflop. With a couple limpers even making your standard 4x type raise is fine when you're going to be IP postflop with a good, not great, hand. So a couple loose passives limp preflop and you just make a standard raise not adding anything for the limpers and you get both of them to call, that's a pretty good result. And because the preflop pot is rather large with money from multiple caller getting everything in the middle when you do flop the nuts (2pair+) is very easy.

Teach me more Master!!! That is good stuff, really.