Best play for the situation?

joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
I was playing a pretty loose ring game, and was in the small blind at the start of this hand.

it's called around to me in the SB and i have 23 spades, so i call the BB, and he checks.

Flop comes AA2

I had been at this table for about 30 minutes, and noticed that people were raising with ax off, so I was 100% sure that there were no aces I had to worry about(and there weren't). The problem was that there were 2 hearts out.

The pot was something like 24 cents, and I pushed all in for about 76 more cents (just took at dollar there to see what I could get it up to, I regularly do that) and it folded around to someone in middle position that called with jack eight hearts.

So I'm not suprised that someone called with that at a micro hand and ended up drawing a heart on me, but my friend told me that at any table that would be a bad play.

My argument was that I knew I had the best hand at the moment, since it was limped around, and that giving anyone with 4 to the flush almost 1:1 pot odds was the right thing to do, but my friend disagreed with me, and I was wanting some other opinions on the matter.

Did I do the right thing? (for tourney play, at least..)
 
-2222-

-2222-

Guest
No doubt about it, it is a gamblers play.

First of all, a lot of non-Ace hands have you beat - 11 pocket pairs to the King.

Any one of them are going to be almost certain that you do not have an Ace. A lot of people would put you on a 2 because of the size of the over-bet (ie, defensive play telegraphs your hand).

So even the hearts draw has 9 hearts and probably 2 x 3 outs for their over cards...at the minimum 12 outs and up to 15 so lets call it 13.5 (say about 3.5-1 per street or about 1.75-1 for the Turn and River). You only gave odds of 1.66-1 so it was only a very marginally bad play for him to call and that is not even considering that you may be bluffing.

Overall, it is a risky play. Because of the size of the bet relative to the size of the pot, you have to win this hand fully 4 times out of five ( huge number) for it to be a winning play and chances are you are going to win here less than that over the long run.
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
Besides the flush draw, he also had two overcards that could have hit on the turn or river. It was a VERY risky all in epecially someone who has that many outs.
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

Legend
You were ahead in the hand at the moment but you were not the favorite to win the hand. With two overcards he has 15 outs, that is about a 30% chance to hit on either the flush or the overs per card. That makes the caller a 60% favorite after the flop.

It would be worse if they had straight possiblities.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
I dunno, the read I got from the table ruled out any pp or Aces, and there weren't.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
If you were certain nobody had a better hand then the play is fine, but quite how you can be certain nobody has a low-mid pocket pair or something like K2 here I don't know.

Personally I fold preflop - I don't care that I'm getting 8-1 or whatever on my money, 32s is crap.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
well it was a 6 handed table, and I hadn't seen a 44/55/66 etc that wasn't raised if not all-in'd preflop.
 
S

shwingzilla

Guest
-2222- said:
No doubt about it, it is a gamblers play.

First of all, a lot of non-Ace hands have you beat - 11 pocket pairs to the King.

Any one of them are going to be almost certain that you do not have an Ace. A lot of people would put you on a 2 because of the size of the over-bet (ie, defensive play telegraphs your hand).

So even the hearts draw has 9 hearts and probably 2 x 3 outs for their over cards...at the minimum 12 outs and up to 15 so lets call it 13.5 (say about 3.5-1 per street or about 1.75-1 for the Turn and River). You only gave odds of 1.66-1 so it was only a very marginally bad play for him to call and that is not even considering that you may be bluffing.

Overall, it is a risky play. Because of the size of the bet relative to the size of the pot, you have to win this hand fully 4 times out of five ( huge number) for it to be a winning play and chances are you are going to win here less than that over the long run.

That's kind of a deceiving way to put it. If a "win" is getting him to fold, and a "loss" is him calling you, then your way of putting it would be correct. But if he gets a call, then he is contributing 43% of the pot, and only has to win it one in two times for it to be a winning play.

That said, I think it's probably an overly aggressive play. Not necessarily a bad one, it's something to mix in once in a while, but unless your reading is really good, playing like this will probably end up losing you money in the long run.
 
B

BIGJ

Guest
I'd say with J8 hearts he made a terrible call. Since you were all-in there were zero implied odds of gaining money if his flush hit. He's also getting terrible pot odds to make his flush. As well, you're opponent has to assume you have at the very least two pair and have outs to hit the boat. You could also have had a higher flush draw yourself and were trying to push him out. There were way too many hands you could have held that would beat him or could still out draw him, bad call by him and positive money for you long term.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
positive money for you long term.
Huh?? Positive money for 2,3 spades SB long term??

This I have to agree with dorkus here "I don't care that I'm getting 8-1 or whatever on my money, 32s is crap."

The Op wouldn't have put himself in this predicament by over valuing 3,2 suited from the SB.
 
B

BIGJ

Guest
I meant positive money against that hand, the J8 of hearts. Against an unknown hand I would never think that and wouldn't have made the play. If the op correctly placed his opponent on a flush draw then he did make the correct play by giving him poor pot odds.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Well figure it out.. I have a thread with almost the same situation..

1st off there is an assumption..so I was 100% sure that there were no aces I had to worry about(and there weren't).

He noticed "and noticed that people were raising with ax off"
Were they doing it in any position? Early? Mid? Late? Do they do it with A,K? A,Q? Is someone slow playing a high pocket pair by limping in? How about any pocket pair?

Now it is micro limit with .24 cents and he pushed up .76 making it 1 dollar.

So someone has to call .76 for either a straight or a flush draw with $1.00 in the pot. Making it a little more then 2:1 to call(not the 1:1 he is said) when a .24 pot bet would have done the trick as well.(his heartache wouldn't have cost so much then) He is pushing in hopes that nobody is on a straight draw, flush, or pocket pairs.

What I am trying to figure out is how the pot got to .24 on micro limits... cause he said he limped in. Limping in means that and at best for .02 micro limit table, so even at 10 people it would only be .20 tops.

But in all seriousness check out my thread cause it shows more precise on the same thing.
 
B

BIGJ

Guest
You're right about the odds. I've figured out the odds in this situation and the J8 is 53.5% to win the hand after the flop making it a good call (assuming all cards are known). I think in this situation though its a pretty tough call to make with that hand and the texture of the flop when someone goes all-in. If someone is raising big with that board and all I have is the 3rd highest flush draw I don't think I can make that call.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
"The Op wouldn't have put himself in this predicament by over valuing 3,2 suited from the SB."

=/ was in the SB... risking .02 cents to win a 22 cent pot. 11-1 odds, i'd call that with almost anything.
 
B

BIGJ

Guest
joosebuck said:
"The Op wouldn't have put himself in this predicament by over valuing 3,2 suited from the SB."

=/ was in the SB... risking .02 cents to win a 22 cent pot. 11-1 odds, i'd call that with almost anything.

You're getting pot odds to limp in every time from the SB, unless you fear the BB is going to re-raise you, you should always limp. I'd say the outcome of this hand was that you made a failed bluff attempt and your opponent made the correct call (whether he put you on that hand correctly or just made a bad call and got lucky to be ahead is debateable)
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
I said a little more then 2:1, should have elaborated that it is less than 3:1..

Now the texture of the board, remember the OP had a read that everyone raises with AX, now what is to say the one who called didn't have the same read?

I agree the 3rd highest flush is hard to call with.. well actually J,8 isn't the cats meow and I personally wouldn't have played it.

These types of hands both the OP and the person who called/limped with on J,8 are clear examples of hands which almost shouldn't be played.

at .04 limit.. you are almost guaranteed then you will get a call here on the flush draw no matter what. The "I don't care syndrome" players are here.

But like Dorkus said 3,2 suited and crap. This hand wouldn't have happened cause you shouldn't have been in the hand to begin with(lesson #1)

That still is even for me the hardest lesson to stick by. Playing in a hand I shouldn't be playing in, making calls, raises with a hand I shouldn't be playing in. Yet I will get irate/hot under the collar because the hand I shouldn't be playing in lost.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
was in the SB... risking .02 cents to win a 22 cent pot. 11-1 odds, i'd call that with almost anything

A bet saved is a bet earned.. Ev is the the worst in the SB, small blind always acts 1st. So wasting bets constantly in the SB will make you lose more in the long run. 2 SB's equal 1 BB... so folding the SB twice gives you a BB for later...

Now lets look at .02 say ten times in the SB.. that is an extra .10 that can be used when you do get the monster hand. Hate to be caught with your pants down holding a monster and you can only bet say .70 instead of .80 or even higher because you constantly called in the SB.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
i wont call with complete crap, or even mediocre hands in the SB due to its poor position, but we're talking about 11-1 odds vs. the normal 3-1 to 6-1 you get in the SB
 
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