Another would you call here or?

twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Stage #239328782 Tourney ID 46005 Holdem Single Tournament No Limit $15 - 2005-11-15 12:26:56 (ET)
Table: 4123951 (real money) Seat #8 is the dealer
Seat 1 - UNSTOPPABLED ($1500 in chips)
Seat 2 - CAFALCONS22 ($1500 in chips)
Seat 3 - TWIZZYBOP ($1500 in chips)
Seat 4 - THOMAS456 ($1500 in chips)
Seat 5 - EUROEXTENDER ($1500 in chips)
Seat 6 - WHATCANIDOU4 ($1500 in chips)
Seat 7 - WIRED PAIR ($1500 in chips)
Seat 8 - PILLAR32 ($1500 in chips)
Seat 9 - SONICPUKE ($1500 in chips)
SONICPUKE - Posts small blind $15
UNSTOPPABLED - Posts big blind $30
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to TWIZZYBOP [Qd Ad]
CAFALCONS22 - Folds
TWIZZYBOP - Raises $150 to $150
THOMAS456 - Calls $150
EUROEXTENDER - Folds
WHATCANIDOU4 - Calls $150
WIRED PAIR - Calls $150
PILLAR32 - Folds
SONICPUKE - Folds
UNSTOPPABLED - Calls $120
*** FLOP *** [4d 6s 5d]
UNSTOPPABLED - Checks
TWIZZYBOP - Bets $360
THOMAS456 - Calls $360
WHATCANIDOU4 - Folds
WIRED PAIR - All-In(Raise) $1350 to $1350
UNSTOPPABLED - Folds
TWIZZYBOP - All-In $990
THOMAS456 - Folds

I will show the results after a few responses :) I called cause of so many outs I had. Just couldn't see putting him on a straight at this point in time.Considering all the odd calls I have seen as of recently with pre-flop early calls.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
LOL ok.. ok now the results.. I was called lucky even though I had 15 outs to beat this person, flush draw, 3 Aces and 3 Queens.
I do see however why he also called being that he was on an open ended straight draw. I like this hand anyway cause it shows that he had my cornered but not as cornered as the person thought who called me lucky.

TWIZZYBOP - All-In $990
THOMAS456 - Folds
*** TURN *** [4d 6s 5d] [Jd]
*** RIVER *** [4d 6s 5d Jd] [3h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TWIZZYBOP - Shows [Qd Ad] (Flush, ace high)
WIRED PAIR - Shows [7h 7d] (Straight, three to seven)
TWIZZYBOP Collects $3825 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($3825)
Board [4d 6s 5d Jd 3h]
Seat 1: UNSTOPPABLED (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 2: CAFALCONS22 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 3: TWIZZYBOP won Total ($3825) All-In HI:($3825) with Flush, ace high [Qd Ad - P:Ad,P:Qd,B:Jd,B:5d,B:4d]
Seat 4: THOMAS456 Folded on the FLOP
Seat 5: EUROEXTENDER Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: WHATCANIDOU4 Folded on the FLOP
Seat 7: WIRED PAIR HI:lost with Straight, three to seven [7h 7d - P:7h,B:6s,B:5d,B:4d,B:3h]
Seat 8: PILLAR32 (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: SONICPUKE (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
 
gjshand

gjshand

Rock Star
I would have played it the same mate, you started the action and with good reason. Once the flop came you bet out as you should have and with the all in you were getting nearly 3 to 1 on the call. Nice play.
 
C

Crock65

Guest
After reading this post I played a very similar hand. I only had the Ace 10 spades. Flop came 2 spades, 9 was the highest card no straight draws. I called the all in, and the only out I hit was the door. lol.
Sometimes you get the nut, other times your left with an empty shell.

Glad it worked for you, but it destroyed me right after reading this post. I do not however hold you liable for my mishap, but just thought it was hilarous that it happend within 3 mins of reading this.
See ya at the tables, and yes I would do it again.
 
Dennis C

Dennis C

Guest
I would defenatly call, but I would have checked after the flop. Then if 77 makes a high bet you can put him all-in, witch is a little more intimidating. I know you have 15 outs but it still feels like a coin flip to me.
 
Jesus Lederer

Jesus Lederer

Rock Star
twizzybop said:
I do see however why he also called being that he was on an open ended straight draw. I like this hand anyway cause it shows that he had my cornered but not as cornered as the person thought who called me lucky.
Actually he didn´t called. He went all in with an over pair and straight draw.
Just one question: how did you know that he didn´t had the straight? I assume it was the first hand of the tournament, so unless you played with him before you had no read on anyone. Anyway if we assume he had one pair, we can count 15 outs. So if you called thinking you had 15 outs, in that case your call is justifyied. With 15 outs against one pair and straight draw you are slightly favourite (0.8% ahead), so if you think in EV, your call should be good in any case (just to know your pot odds were 2.5:1). But if we think about all the situation, you´re risking all your chips on the first hand of the tournament on a draw.
So in relation to your original question "Would you call here?" my answer is no. First of all i don´t know if i like too much the preflop raise UTG+1 with AQs in the first hand of the tournament, but it doesn´t matter. I like the bet on the flop to see were you were standing and to semi-bluff, but that all in reraise would make me fold there. I don´t have any information about my opponent, so it´s very difficult to put him on a certain hand. After the all in raise the best hand i could expect from my opponent is just one pair. In that case i´m 55% favourite. But if he reraised all in in the first hand i can also expect 2 pair (34% chances of winning), set (26% chances of winning) or straight (37% chances of winning). It´s very unsafe to make a call there. Just my opinion.
 
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X

xdmanx007

Legend
Well you might have overbet preflop but tbh you didn't WAY overbet it 5xBB. Your bet and call on the flop were outright HORENDOUS mistakes that you got lucky and got away with! CALLING allins with draws is NOT the soundest of strategies. This coming from a very aggressive player himself! Your intial bet on the flop is only justifiable if you intended it to be a bluff! Too large a bet to be a semibluff also too large for an attempt to buy a cheap turn card. So the only justification that makes sense would be if you were trying to steal the pot right there but since you called his allin we know that wasn't the case!
Now you say you called because you had some "outs" you didn't have ENOUGH outs to justify your tournament life this early on. Your play was not sound in this case but of course the results were favorable just don't go on thinking you played the "best" you could because you won the hand.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Jesus,

You are correct that I didn't know about my oppenent. I did however place him on a pair. Putting him on a low straight draw with a pre-flop raise/call wasn't my thinking. Yet 2 pair wasn't in my thought process because just a measly .50 sit and go. That is why I keep bringing strategy hands to here. Its not that I don't feel comfortable in higher games, just want to learn more strategy before I jump in. I particularly don't like jumping a shark tank without having the proper gear to wear and proper knowledge about the sharks.

XD,
Now you say you called because you had some "outs" you didn't have ENOUGH outs to justify your tournament life this early on.
I figured the pair correctly, if I was wrong then it wouldn't have been. Yet just a question then. At 60% chance of hitting how many more outs would I need to be justifiable?? 16,17,18,19,20??

I admit when I go aggresive, I go aggresive.. yes it is early and taking my chances that early could put me out. Yet even at say later stages if the same opportuntiy presented itself I still could be out.

I do however appreciate everyone's opinion. However I do see both Jesus's and XD's point. Is it worth a risk like that so early in the game?? I thought yes and it paid off. Now would I have the same opinion about this thread if I lost all my chips?? More than likely but then again I'd roll that all the time figuring that I'd win 60 times out of 100.
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
You are applying a cash game concept to tournament play, the game changes when you can't reload and win over the long haul. TOO early to make the moves you made. Unless you are playing in a turbo style format; or it is in the later stages of the tournament, and you have your opponent covered do you make that call.

Now since you wanna crunch the numbers to justify your play AFTER you know what he had, he has 1 of your outs! So BEST case scenario you have 14 outs with 2 cards to come which is as close to a 50/50 shot as you will ever see! I believe you were around 53 percent favorite. So if you think running coin flip allins in the first 2 blind levels of a tournament is sound then so be it, I don't. You run them LATE in the tournament when pushing small edges is more justified because the blinds are much larger.
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

Legend
I know you caught your card but what if he had AA, KK, QQ or even AK? You would have lost some of your outs that would make this a very shaky call at best. Yes, you had a draw to the nut flush, but I would not count the other six outs when making a decision like this early on in a tournament.

I just don't like to gamble that big early on in a tournament.

You overbet in early position. Got a bunch of callers. Someone goes all in. You call. I just see this as something that never should have happened in the first place and you got helped out by drawing to your hand. You saw the big $$$ and went for it way before I feel the need to try and double up.
 
K

KidHavok

Guest
looks like the first hand of a stt, I would have folded cause you would only have 9 outs for flush and 3 queens and 3 aces, 15 outs. Huge drawing hand, but it is the first hand of the tounament. I dont feel like you had the right pot odds for the call. Plus, your outs on the pair may be dead, if he hit a set then you only have the flush draw outs. I dont know, at least you were drawing at the nuts. You made your hand. I am a big believer in, if you think the gamble is worth all your chips, then gamble it. I would not have gambled with that little of blinds. But hey you won, that will teach the idiots not to gamble all in on stupid pairs. Congrats on your fishing expedition......
 
Jesus Lederer

Jesus Lederer

Rock Star
Yet 2 pair wasn't in my thought process because just a measly .50 sit and go

I don´t see your point there. If it was a .50 SNG, it was very likely that he had called preflop with something like 78,65,54 or even 64.
Even if you dismiss those hands, thinking that your early position preflop raise would be called just by good hands, you have to add as possible starting hands AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 10s, AK, in which you are underdog in everyone except for JJ and 10s. You also have to think that if you opponent called with 77, why he couldn´t have 66, 55 or 44? Too much hands to worry about.
One of the problems with your call was that you put your opponent on a hand that was ideal for you, and you didn´t think in a wider range that could beat you. In the exact situation you were, your opponent held one of your outs, making you the underdog (48%).

There is a point that XD said and it´s very important. You were applying a cash game concept to tournament game. You thought that your EV was positive so you had to call, but you didn´t take in consideration that the EV works in the long run. You were all in in that hand, so there wasn´t long run: if you lost you went out of the tournament without possibilities of obtaining any money afterwards.

I figured the pair correctly, if I was wrong then it wouldn't have been

It´s great if you figured the pair correctly, but the problem was that you didn´t make the best move with that information. I´ll repeat this: After the flop you were underdog.
Even if you figured that he had for example 10s, if one of those were a diamond you would have been 53% favourite.
With those odds you don´t want to make a call for all your chips on an early stage of the tournament.

Now would I have the same opinion about this thread if I lost all my chips?? More than likely but then again I'd roll that all the time figuring that I'd win 60 times out of 100.

In that situation you had 48% chances of winning, so you would win 48 times out of 100. And remember the very important fact that you can´t follow the EV there, because if you lose you go home and if you win you just have doubled up on an early stage of the tournament, which doesn´t means that you´ll get money (you just won chips, it´s not "real" money).

I hope you understood my reasons of why you shouldn´t call in a situation like that (running a race on early stages of a tournament, especially if you are all in), because this is one of the few times were i´m 96.2% sure i´m right.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Yes I fully understood you both.. I apologize for that..The question about the outs was just that a question. How many outs would make it justifiable.. if the answer is there is no number of outs to make it justifiable would also suffice :)

I wasn't trying to come across as disagreeing.. Just inquiring about the other aspects.
 
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