Another player trying to beat micros

[MartyMcFly42]

Before replying further, there's something I want to share with you (all), but what inspired me was your thinking about how FR is. In my 9 month experience, they are very tigh. I may not be the best player (far from it, even more than you), but my database - stats on players - is getting bigger every day.

I have read many times that NL2 micros is infested with many fishes. But what if it's just and legend now, what if it was true in past years and nowadays these tables are quite tight? Because when I look at my PT database which tracks about

1)14.000 players I've encountered during my 9 month play, their VPIP is 20,84 and their PFR is 10,39 - including fishes and ultra tight players. That seems pretty good players in NL2 PS Europe.
Is it true that in past, the game was looser with more fishes?
__________
2)When I look at players with more than 42 hands (5700 players, 770.000 hands), their VPIP is only 18.58 and PFR 10.07
__________
3)But when I look only at players with more than 100 hands I am tracking, their VPIP is 16,71 and PFR 9,79 (out of 551.000 hands and 2.100 players)
__________
4)I have stats on 34 players with more than 1000 hands, so good stats on those - VPIP of 14,71 and PFR 8,83.



When I look at BlackRain's videos - and when I read guides how to play poker on internet, the solution is often given "wait for fishes", exploit them. When reading about "typical average" hands, there are often talks about 2 limpers there, 2 reraises there. But in my experience, many hands are with uncontested pots, or with one raise and everyone else folding. Not so often you see 3 players in a hand and very rarely 4+.
Mostly, tables at NL2 PS are full of VPIP 10-20 players.


I hope that above stats are useful to back my hypothesis that NL2 are full of too good players. Am I wrong?

 

[NorskNewman]

If you feel like $2nl is full of good players. I can honestly tell you that your poker journey is going to be rough if you have any aspirations of moving up in levels.

Sure you will run into alot of nits and LAG stat players. Way more at $5nl. But that doesn't make these players good. They make poor decisions and this coins them Bad Regs. Also there are maniac players to be seen too. As well as regular fish. Expecially on the weekend.

I have 48k hands at $2nl on pokerstars last month. 3.09bb/100
I am not crushing but I began 24 tabling and table selecting to my best ability while playing. *that is hard*

Truth is I'm a bad reg too. I make poor decisions but they don't cost as much at this level. Always learning.

 

[NorskNewman]

I wanted to add this :
reference article: http://www.blackrain79.com/2015/05/how-to-deal-with-poker-downswings-and.html

Of course this is an article about downswings, but I think it speaks to poker as a whole.

"we all get frustrated with this game in the short run at times but there is a long term pure mathematical nature to poker which is the great equalizer. That is, everybody will eventually get dealt all of the same hands (both good and bad) in equal frequencies. Therefore, everybody will eventually experience all of the same downswings and short term "bad luck." " - blackrain79

This is something I read today that is pure gold. The past two days I have ran into 10 sets with my overpairs, and lost the maximum. Man what if I found a way to get away from those hands? I would be nearly 7 or 8 BI up without those loses. I know what its like to be on the good end of that hand situation.

My point is in the quote. If you and I can learn to get away, that will separate us from the bad regs. Because odds are if you have over 100k hands at this level like I do and you haven't been able to move on, there are holes like this in your game.

Anyway look forward to your thoughts.

 

[MartyMcFly42]

^ True, the cost of my 9 months playing poker, improving my skills is kind of low - good investment as I call it.

Just disregard the word "good" I used and look at the stats. As I said, when I look at hand replays from few years ago, guides and videos, I see and hear about a lot of fish, mostly obvious by their VPIP. Yet when I play at the NL2 tables, I see tight players everywhere with ocassional potentional fish, who is quickly devoured by the other, more skilled tight players.

The higher the stakes, the more difficult. That's how it always was and I believe it. But wouldn't you agree that micros, including NL2 has become harder and so new players like me has it more difficult and have to work very hard to learn?

If so, I'm up to it, I took this challenge 9 months ago and I am a man who takes challenges head on, slowly and systematically. But I need to know if the terrain, the table players texture has changed from what it was several years ago.

Just look at the stats.

 

[J_Slice]

Before replying further, there's something I want to share with you (all), but what inspired me was your thinking about how FR is. In my 9 month experience, they are very tigh. I may not be the best player (far from it, even more than you), but my database - stats on players - is getting bigger every day.

I have read many times that NL2 micros is infested with many fishes. But what if it's just and legend now, what if it was true in past years and nowadays these tables are quite tight? Because when I look at my PT database which tracks about

Wow, it must just be us Americans that were the fish on PS/FT

I've just started playing again on Bovada and while I have less than 10k hands at 5NL and 10NL there are tons of fish. It's common for a 6max table to have 2 or 3 players running 60/10, 25/3, and 55/40. Granted it's only over 50 or 100 hands or so, but that is pretty common there. Of course sometimes I sit at a table and there is no one with a VPIP over 30 or so after a few orbits. When that happens it's time to drop that table and find another. I haven't played FR on Bovada so I can't comment on the fish population there, but I am fairly sure it's similar.

When I was able to play on PS and FT it's true the tables usually had at least 2 or 3 bad players, often times more. When there wasn't, there were so many tables running that you could just drop that one and find another. I don't know how the traffic is on PS nowadays, it probably is tighter than years past, but I find it hard to believe that the majority of 2NL players are now solid. Sure they are probably a bit better preflop, but they are likely making lots of mistakes postflop.

How aggressively are you table selecting? When you sit at a table for a few orbits and you can see there aren't any bad players it's probably time to leave that table and find another. You should be able to tell within those first 30 or so hands (probably even less than that). Filter the lobby for average players to flop percentage and try to sit at the top tables.

1)14.000 players I've encountered during my 9 month play, their VPIP is 20,84 and their PFR is 10,39 - including fishes and ultra tight players. That seems pretty good players in NL2 PS Europe.

21/10 I would say is semi-loose passive preflop in FR. They are likely limping or calling raises too often preflop with marginal hands and only raising with their premium hands. It's hard to say how they are after the flop, but most times their passive preflop play translates to passive postflop play (not always). They will be check/calling when they get a piece of the flop, and betting or raising when they have something good. It's up to you to figure out what exactly a piece of the flop is to them using your HUD stats, reads, and history, then play accordingly. I know, much easier said then done.

Just disregard the word "good" I used and look at the stats. As I said, when I look at hand replays from few years ago, guides and videos, I see and hear about a lot of fish, mostly obvious by their VPIP. Yet when I play at the NL2 tables, I see tight players everywhere with ocassional potentional fish, who is quickly devoured by the other, more skilled tight players.

You are going to have to take the fish's money before the others do. I don't know how many tables you are playing at once, but whether its 1 or 4 or 12 you need to be table selecting like your life depends on it. If you must sit at a table full of super tight players, you need to loosen up. Sitting there and playing the 'let's see who can play the fewest hands' game is not the best course of action. An overly simple way of looking at it is when your opponents are playing loose, you want to play tighter; when your opponents are playing tight, you want to play looser. Obviously it's not that simple and figuring out just how much tighter or looser is something you'll have to learn.

Just look at the stats.

I see the stats. And it does seem that the general preflop play is a bit tighter, but the population is playing 2NL for the same reasons you are. They are still learning the game and are still making mistakes. It's not that they are all solid winning players that just play 2NL for the money. You need to identify these mistakes and exploit them in your opponents, while fixing them in your game.

You keep giving stats and saying how tight the games are. If the games are as tight as you say, then you need to loosen up (or even better find looser tables if at all possible). You need to be playing more hands in position that can flop big hands or big draws (suited connectors, small pocket pairs, suited aces, etc). You need to learn how to play those hands on certain board textures and how they relate to your opponents range.

I feel that most of what I said in my previous post still applies. Open more hands in the CO and BTN targeting players that are prone to giving up postflop or folding to steals too often. Sometimes you'll steal the blinds preflop. Sometimes you'll take the pot down without a hand postflop. Sometimes you'll even flop a huge hand.

Another thing you may want to study is 3betting light. I remember when I was first starting I had a ridiculous Fold to 3bet stat, like 90%. For obvious reasons this was easily exploitable for anyone that had enough hands on me. Versus players with a high stat like that you can practice 3betting them with hands like small suited aces. Hands that have potential postflop, are easy to let go if they 4bet you, and even better when they have blockers making the odds they contain a high ace less likely. Use moderation if you experiment with this. If someone opens from EP it's probably a bad idea to 3bet them light. You'll want to be more inclined to try this when you're on the BTN and say the HJ or CO opens.

Here are a few threads that I would recommend reading and studying. They are a bit dated (for example he lists small pocket pairs as a limping range which at that time was fine, but nowadays it's probably not ideal to be open limping), but they are really useful and most of what he says still holds true. They're all written by the CC member ChuckTs. His posts helped my game more than I could ever have imagined.

Microstakes FR Guide

Continuation bets

Why are you betting?

 

[MartyMcFly42]

Watching another of BlackRain's videos, slowly crunching to the posts you guys wrote. I have updated my HUD also with few of BR's things I saw as useful (I had "fold to f cbet", but added also Fold to River and Turn Cbet).

http://oi57.tinypic.com/35n7fvb.jpg
Table selection - so without any paid App telling me, I will have to use this? Playing at tables with most "avg pot per hour" ? Is there any other free way?

 

[J_Slice]

Watching another of BlackRain's videos, slowly crunching to the posts you guys wrote. I have updated my HUD also with few of BR's things I saw as useful (I had "fold to f cbet", but added also Fold to River and Turn Cbet).

http://oi57.tinypic.com/35n7fvb.jpg
Table selection - so without any paid app telling me, I will have to use this? Playing at tables with most "avg pot per hour" ? Is there any other free way?

Be careful how much value you put into stats that deal with later streets. They will need a larger sample size before they converge and have much meaning. So always take that into account. Things like that happen much less frequently than actions preflop and on the flop. Say someone is showing a 100% Fold to River Cbet. Make sure to look at how many times he has actually faced a river cbet. It could only be 1 or 2 times and he has folded to both of them which could result in a disaster for you. Also, to face a river cbet would mean he has to face a flop cbet and a turn cbet in the same hand in order to have a chance to fold to a river cbet.

I'm not sure exactly what the image is. There is usually a tab in the poker lobby that is Average Players to the Flop percentage. You want to try to find tables that have the largest amount of players seeing flops since that usually means there are fishier opponents.

 

[MartyMcFly42]

^ Also, answering your question, I play on 2 tables. I find it of right balance between fast and slow. Tried playing on 1 table, but I regularly got reckless. 4 and more tables at once and I was doing stupid mistakes. 2 tables - enough to keep it moving, given that I play not so many hands that I fold majority of them.

I switched "view" and I see pls/flop now, thanks.

 

[MartyMcFly42]

I also use black felt table and black background, have avatars switched off, animations disabled (only static pictures), as not to distract me from the important points.

Good or bad choice?

 

[J_Slice]

^ Also, answering your question, I play on 2 tables. I find it of right balance between fast and slow. Tried playing on 1 table, but I regularly got reckless. 4 and more tables at once and I was doing stupid mistakes. 2 tables - enough to keep it moving, given that I play not so many hands that I fold majority of them.

I switched "view" and I see pls/flop now, thanks.

That's good. Only play as many tables as you feel comfortable playing. When you start gaining more confidence you can start adding one at a time until you find your sweet spot.

I also use black felt table and black background, have avatars switched off, animations disabled (only static pictures), as not to distract me from the important points.

Good or bad choice?

Anything that will help you focus on making the best decisions is good. What that means is really a personal choice. For example, I used to listen to music while playing. I thought it would help me stay focused, but I found that it was kind of distracting and my mind would wander. Then I remembered reading about students listening to classical music to help with studying and decided to give it a try. I found that my mind was clearer and I was recognizing trouble spots that I may have made a mistake before when I wasn't as focused. Now I listen to all genres of music so it was still enjoyable to me, but I know some people absolutely hate classical music which may be distracting for them.

 

[MartyMcFly42]

I grabbed a screen shot of some FR stats of mine from a long time ago
http://i.imgur.com/UwMH0WW.png

Now to only know how to play weaker hands :-D even when I flop top pair with top kicker, I am generally hesitant to push very much. A phobia to overcome perhaps?

The reason why I raise similar amount of hands in all positions is that I know (more than other 85% of hands) know how to play them.

So say you are playing something like 22+, ATs+, ATo+, KQs from EP. You could drop maybe all pocket pairs 55-22, ATo, and ATs from your EP ranges. Keep them in your later position open ranges, but add maybe some suited aces, some higher suited connectors like 98s and T9s, suited broadways. Start slowly and as you get more confidence start to add a bit more. If it starts to get uncomfortable take a few of them out.

This sounds simple enough though that I can understand it.

I can give you some links to helpful articles if you would like. Some are sort of outdated, but they have helped me a lot.

You can try, it's like with book (prose) recommendation - I have thousands of books to choose from, but if someone recommends me something, it's suddenly something real instead of endless books to choose from. Something concrete.

You can also filter for the times they went to showdown and use your hand replayer to see how they are playing various hands. If anything it will help you understand what they are doing and you can come up with a gameplan on how to best play against them.

I can try, though replicating the successes of others is tough. But I suppose I can learn something in the process - the process itself of understanding is the important part perhaps.

The way it seems to me now is that anyone with a decent amount of hands against you is going to see you are playing a very static, face up preflop range. When they can be relatively sure what range you're playing preflop they can exploit you to no end. Bluffing you when your range likely missed, trapping you with their monsters when they know they are likely to be ahead, folding to all of your value bets, etc. I'm not sure how many people at 2NL are running HUDs or have tons of hands on you, I'm sure there are more nowadays, but I'm sure there are a decent amount.

This sounds like a big leaking point of mine. But few things I don't understand. I continually lose money (slowly, but surely), so it must be me failing to understand some basic element, but - if I play more or less same range on all positions, wouldn't it make it confusing for opponents to know what two cards I hold?

"Folding to all your value bets" - the story of my poker life I would say. Everyone folding to me, every time when I bet half the pot. So the fact that I play only when I have "sure hand to win" and folding when I have good, but not possibly best hand ... they know this from stats they have on me / looking at how I play?


All in all I don't think you are playing terrible. You're playing a bit too tight which isn't so bad, much better than playing too loose imo. If you can work on opening up a bit and playing well postflop you should be able to beat the micro stakes.

Sorry for the wall of text. I just thought there were some things I could say to help you out. Hopefully they do

Sure it's helpful. Cardschat, so we chat.

I cut some of what you said, for the sake of adding your wall of text and my wall of replies together.

 

[J_Slice]

Now to only know how to play weaker hands :-D even when I flop top pair with top kicker, I am generally hesitant to push very much. A phobia to overcome perhaps?

Yes, that is the tough part. It really comes down to learning how to play versus that specific opponent at the time. Learning what hand range he may have, how that range connects with that given board, narrowing his perceived range by the action that has taken place so far in the hand, etc. There are some opponents I'm happy to get all my money in the pot with TPTK, and others that I'm really not happy with TPTK when they start showing aggression.

This sounds like a big leaking point of mine. But few things I don't understand. I continually lose money (slowly, but surely), so it must be me failing to understand some basic element, but - if I play more or less same range on all positions, wouldn't it make it confusing for opponents to know what two cards I hold?

Assuming your opponent is a thinking player, he won't be thinking so much as to what two exact cards you hold, but what range of cards you have (which is how you should approach things as well). When your range is so tight from all positions it makes it much easier for him to tell whether you hit different types of boards. Do you think it's easier for him when he knows you can only have 12% of hands on the button, or when you can have 30%?

For example, you open on the button and the flop comes KQT. He knows that your current 12% range likely hit and he can choose to proceed with only his big hands. When the flop comes 965 he knows that your range is much less likely to have connected. He may be able to bluff you off your overcards, or check his big hands hoping you catch something on a later street. If you show aggression he'll know you most likely have an overpair or a set and can decide how well his hand does against that range.

Now let's say you are opening ~30% of hands on the button. It won't be nearly as easy for him to decide if you connected on the KQT flop. You could have A5s and get him to fold his underpairs when you don't have much, or you could have AJ and get him to continue when he thinks you are bluffing. The same applies on the 965 flop. Your range now includes lots of hands that may have hit this board. When you show aggression now he can't be as sure that you only have overpairs or sets.

Of course those are simply examples, and probably not great ones lol.

"Folding to all your value bets" - the story of my poker life I would say. Everyone folding to me, every time when I bet half the pot. So the fact that I play only when I have "sure hand to win" and folding when I have good, but not possibly best hand ... they know this from stats they have on me / looking at how I play?

If they are using a HUD and have been at the table with you for several orbits, or they have played with you before, they can probably see this in your stats. If a thinking player has no history with you or isn't using a HUD, they will usually assume you are playing tight in EP and looser in LP until you show otherwise.

Playing more hands in position will give you more chances to value bet since you are seeing more boards with a variety of different hands. It will also let you bluff more often so you're happy when everyone folds. Again, don't over adjust when trying to play looser in LP. Gradually apply this until you are comfortable and have more experience. Keep studying and learning the best ways to play versus certain types of opponents. Your strategy should be different against a tight-aggressive player, versus a loose-passive fish, versus a maniac, etc.

 

[Gypsy]

BlACKRAIN Micro Specialist extraordinaire

Blackrain has a book, search the forums to find the site. When I could play on PS I played very similar to him, and with him a lot as well. I respected his play before he put the book out etc. If it is still anything remotely like it was when black friday hit the US players then follow his advice, and profit.

Here is his youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/user/BlackRain79Poker

BLACKRAIN79 ROCKS!!!!!!

Here is his Website

http://www.blackrain79.com/

I am at .5NL 6 Max and thanks to BlackRains Book(The Second One! Updated for 2015) and Vid's I am running at a decent Profit. I feel VERY lucky that I have read all of his post's and watched his Vid's even before starting to seriously Play.

He makes thousands of Dollars grinding the .2 and .5's and his advice is SPOT on. If you are not checking him out then you are doing yourself a BIG disservice. He is a Micro Specialist and really knows what he is doing for those Stake levels.

Also, I don't mean to sound like a shill for "LeakBuster" but reviewing your Sessions with it are Super helpful.

I feel that Blackrain's advice has given me a leg up on my competition in a HUGE way.

Regards,

GypsyChick

 

[Frozrbyte]

Before replying further, there's something I want to share with you (all), but what inspired me was your thinking about how FR is. In my 9 month experience, they are very tigh. I may not be the best player (far from it, even more than you), but my database - stats on players - is getting bigger every day.

I have read many times that NL2 micros is infested with many fishes. But what if it's just and legend now, what if it was true in past years and nowadays these tables are quite tight? Because when I look at my PT database which tracks about

1)14.000 players I've encountered during my 9 month play, their VPIP is 20,84 and their PFR is 10,39 - including fishes and ultra tight players. That seems pretty good players in NL2 PS Europe.
Is it true that in past, the game was looser with more fishes?
__________
2)When I look at players with more than 42 hands (5700 players, 770.000 hands), their VPIP is only 18.58 and PFR 10.07
__________
3)But when I look only at players with more than 100 hands I am tracking, their VPIP is 16,71 and PFR 9,79 (out of 551.000 hands and 2.100 players)
__________
4)I have stats on 34 players with more than 1000 hands, so good stats on those - VPIP of 14,71 and PFR 8,83.



When I look at BlackRain's videos - and when I read guides how to play poker on internet, the solution is often given "wait for fishes", exploit them. When reading about "typical average" hands, there are often talks about 2 limpers there, 2 reraises there. But in my experience, many hands are with uncontested pots, or with one raise and everyone else folding. Not so often you see 3 players in a hand and very rarely 4+.
Mostly, tables at NL2 PS are full of VPIP 10-20 players.


I hope that above stats are useful to back my hypothesis that NL2 are full of too good players. Am I wrong?

First of all, I do have to agree with you that the players at 2NL now are definitely better now compared to previous years. But even though their pre flop selection are better, they are making a lot of mistakes post flop and the occasional pre flop mistakes. I'm currently doing a challenge when I try to run it up as much as I can starting from $0. I am now approaching $150 aiming for $250 10NL bankroll. Some of the mistakes I see are calling pre flop 3bets to set mine without taking into account betsize and effective stacks. It's important to take note of these players and punish their pre flop mistakes.

Post flop mistakes are player dependent. That's where your HUD comes into play. Try to learn what are the normal ,high and low ranges for each stats and use it to your advantage. Most common will be overplaying premiums and TPTK.

I do agree with J_slice that you need to play more hands in position at the button and cutoff. 12% VPIP at the button is too tight. I'm not an extremely tight or loose player. My stats are about VPIP25/PFR 18/3bet 9 but my VPIP is what it is mainly because I'm playing a lot of hands from late positions and like to take hands post flop.

Since there are a lot of tight players, you want to be stealing from late position a lot since they fold most of their hands anyway and cautious when they finally decided to play a hand in the blinds. They might get sick of your steals and 3bet your steal but it will take a while before they realise it and they won't be able to 3bet you every single time.

 

[Frozrbyte]

If you are uncertain of what to do in certain spots, just post your hand history and I'm sure there are a lot of players in CC who are willing to give their opinion of how you could play the hand

 

[Karkus77]

this is what i like to see. someone that really wants to learn but also knows they have to play a decent amount before the stats are useful.

as other people have mentioned. the thing that jumps out a mile about your stats is not using positional play

your vpip is almost identical at every position. the impressive part of that is you obviously know a hand range and your sticking to it, which means your a solid player

but that hand range needs to alter drastically. your button needs to have the highest pfr/vpip then cutoff and so on. with the sb being played the least.

you obviously have a hand range your comfortable playing. so maybe thats what you should be playing middles position. and alter the range either side of that accordingly

 

[zahridak]

Thats very good play style bro

 

[MartyMcFly42]

Thanks guys, I've been following your advices for the last 6 months and was kind of successfull. Kind of.

 

[MartyMcFly42]

Here's the position one:
http://oi62.tinypic.com/b67b45.jpg

The previous one was from from pre 08-2015 period.

This new one is from period of 08-2015 to today (02-2016). I've managed to have a button as my most played position, but I think my VPIP overall is now much tighter. Which is a bad thing I'd reckon.

http://oi63.tinypic.com/33p8uvt.jpg