a little tip on playing your draws

tribal_kronic

tribal_kronic

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lets say your on the button with a 7-8 of hearts and someone raises (2 times) the blind you call and everyone else folds and the flop comes 5-6-Q rainbow, the original raiser makes a sizeable bet of (2 or 3 times) the blind what do you do? you have a open ended nut straight draw with a rainbow flop, most people would call but i think thats wrong, in this situation i would raise, the reason i would raise is because there's no possible flush or boat on the board and your buying yourself a free card, by free card i mean that if he calls your raise you can be pretty sure he's going to check to you after the turn card comes out because you showed strength by raising his bet instead of just calling his initial raise and letting him control the hand, know the turn comes A and he checks to you, now you have the option of stabbing at the pot but i wouldn't recomend that because he did raise pre flop so he's representing big cards or a pair, so you check and get to see if you hit or miss on the river for free, i find this very useful because most people are going to bet more on the turn then they did on the flop, and lets say you do hit on the river, he's never going to put you on a straight because of your raise and you are most likely to get paid off if he has a decent hand.:cool:
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

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so you check and get to see if you hit or miss on the river for free

Great advice.. but its not freee.. take your re-raise and split it in half.. that is the cost of seeing this river card :)
 
Dennis C

Dennis C

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twizzybop said:
so you check and get to see if you hit or miss on the river for free

Great advice.. but its not freee.. take your re-raise and split it in half.. that is the cost of seeing this river card :)
Excelent point. Tribal I do agree with you, but why not come out firing after 4th street? This might cause a fold or add to a pot which you may have.
 
tribal_kronic

tribal_kronic

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yes i did mention you can stab at the pot but be aware that if he has AK, AQ, or a set of some kind your leaving yourself vulnerable for a re-raise and it could cost you the rest of your chips to see the river, you have to respect the fact that he did raise pre flop so he's representing big cards or a pair of some kind
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

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Here is why I agree with the reraise on a hand like this post flop if you have position and the chip stack to handle it.

#1 It could be a continuation bet and he did not hit anything. He folds and you win the pot right there.

#2 You just reraise double his initial bet so it is 6xBB. He checks to you on the turn and you check, it is the same as him betting 3xBB on the turn and you calling but now you are in control of the hand because you became the aggressor. You can fire out again on the turn and he may fold figuring you on a set, you get resistance there, then you can decided to call or not. The larger pot after the flop may keep the pot odds good enough to call in that situation.

#3 It will help disguise your hand strength by reraising. Most people will just call down to the river to try to hit the straights/flushes as cheaply as possible.
 
diabloblanco

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twizzybop said:
so you check and get to see if you hit or miss on the river for free

Great advice.. but its not freee.. take your re-raise and split it in half.. that is the cost of seeing this river card :)
Nothing is free, but he's right as far as this play saving you chips in many situations. Most players will bet larger on the turn than on the flop, obviously, so when you re-raise the flop and take the control away from the original raiser you give yourself the possibility of taking the pot down right there with the strong draw (8 outs) , or going into the turn with some presence and inducing a check which gives you the option to either make another run at the pot if the turn doesn't bring a scare card or take the river card off for free and try to hit your draw again. So technically, if this play works the way it is suppose to, you give yourself a lot better shot at taking the pot both on the flop and after the turn, as well as saving yourself some money by grabbing the reigns and taking control of the table with your re-raise.
 
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dmc7777

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I will consider this next time I am in that situation. Taking the lead always gives you more ways to win the pot.
 
tribal_kronic

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i'm glad some of you found this information useful
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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There's another side to this that might be worth pointing out: This play is best used when it's more important to win the pot than to win a lot. The way I figure is this:

By raising on the flop, you're (hopefully) managing to get the second guy to check to you on the turn, and at that point you can either fire away (if you hit your straight) or you can check (and get the river for "free") and have a second chance to hitting your straight.

But keep the odds in mind, here:

1) You've made a raise on the flop that is not profitable in regards to pot odds.
2) You've reduced your implied odds. Unless your opponent has a strong hand, your indication of strength on the flop might mean that he won't pay you off if you do hit your straight - in fact, he might fold to a bet on the turn, even with something like QJ.

So in order to make this play, I'd want two things to be fairly certain:
1. My opponent will indeed check to me on the turn.
2. If I hit my straight, my raise (and call) will have to be paid off in regards to the odds I need to be profitable.

It's a good strategy, but like all of them, it has its time and place. Food for thought.
 
tribal_kronic

tribal_kronic

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this play is designed to see the river for a discount, like i mentioned above if you just call his initial bet on the flop get ready to pay maybe twice as much to see the river because majority of people are going to bet more on the turn then they did on the flop, because by just calling your showing him that you are most likely drawing to a draw of some kind or that your hand is weak, your giving yourself more options with the raise, but this play only works if you have position on your opponent, and it's like putting on the invisible man costume if your straight does hit because its the last hand he's going to put you on
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Yes, but I'm arguing that it's not enough that you get to see the last card for free: In order for it to be correct, you need also to be paid off enough when you hit your straight. An example:

If the blinds are at 50/100, and he raises to 300 preflop. Everyone folds but you, and you call. The pot, at that point, is 650. On the flop, he bets a "sizeable bet". Let's say he bets the pot, which is then 1300. You raise it, let's say as much as he bet. With that, you've paid an extra 1300 for the (possible) chance of getting a free card and hit your straight either on the turn or on the river. your chance for getting the winning hand after the river, at this point, is about 2-1 (33%).

Let's check where you're at, pot-wise: The pot, before your call-and-raise, is 1300, which is what you're guaranteed to gain if you win. But that's not enough: You will have paid 1300 to win 1300, and you need implied odds of 2-1 to be profitable; You need him to pay at least an extra 1300 into the pot if you hit your straight.

Although it is usually the case that you might squeeze that out of him, it's definitely something that you need to consider in order to do this profitably.
 
~~Shelynn~~

~~Shelynn~~

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Trible and F Paul you both make very good points and suggestions on this subject. I think it gave me a better knowledge of how and what not to do. Thanks Guys !
 
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I agree with GF, the bet does disguise your hand, and you actually are saving money if you do indeed get a free card. He's not going to raise the same on 4th street as he did on the flop, as the pot is going to be bigger. Thus, the idea of "dividing the raise in two" in order to see that he's not saving money is wrong.
 
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