A debate with Bill Hollorian

[tenbob]

Ok Bill, when i started on CC about a year ago i felt that i was an un-educated newbie, but in the last year i felt that i have improved my game enough to challenge your knowledge

So the disagreement is the big pair debate.

So big pairs give implied odds to your opponent, fine. But get all-in pre-flop its ok ???? Hardly sturdy poker..........

Isolating one player pre-flop is surely the same as getting all-in, the big difference is that you get a second chance to get off the hand on the flop.

So you hold AA UTG, raise 4XBB and get 1 caller, your out of positon and your single opponent knows it, so he pushes regardless of the flop (unless its expectional) you HAVE TO CALL. All in pre-flop and on the flop is the same thing surely, of course there is times you have to flop but the VAST MAJORITY of times your still ahead..............Ok if you fail to isolate one player and 2 or indeed 3 call your raise then think again, but heads up....

Nah......... Not for me.

By the book stuff, safe, win little safe pots all the time ???

Opnions ?

 

[Stick66]

That's why poker is so great, TB.

On one hand, your odds are closer against random hands with 5 cards to come than with 2 cards.

On the other, the chance of you getting outplayed is greater if you play further down the hand (even by a pure beginner sometimes).

A tough call. But if you want to go "by the book stuff", Sklansky says in "Tournament Poker For Advanced Players" that less experienced players should move in more against better players to avoid being outplayed. I'm not fond of moving in either, but I believe he & Bill are right until you & I become those "better players".

 

[Bill_Hollorian]

So lets say blinds are 50-100. You have 5000 and I do to. I have J,10 and you bet 400 dollars. The flop comes I assume in your argument you check, I push. You call.
I now push when I can beat aces, but fold when I cant. My implied odds: about 10-1.
The worst part is by making the call you reward and fulfill the implied odds.
You push preflop, I have no implied odds I have to take the worst of it and try to suck out. Thats the difference between pushing preflop and on the flop.
If instead check calling the flop push you push first, i only call if I can beat aces.
Controllling the pot includes raising, as a matter of fact it may even include over betting. see if you bet 100 it is easy for someone to raise, so you may choose to bet 250, now they would have to raise to 500 and they are much less likely to do so. so instead they call, that is controlling the size of the pot.

I look orward to continuing this debate.

Bill

 

[Bill_Hollorian]

No generally you win smaller pots and lose big ones.

Lets say I have pocket 6's I can get away if I miss them I check the flop you bet I fold. There is the pot you just won. Same senario except there is a 6 on the flop. you push I call. I win a big pot.

 

[Styrofoam]

IMO its better to get your money in before the flop... if they call, you're the better hand, and they can't save money...if you don't - every card that comes up is a card that could beat you..

 

[joosebuck]

Another reason low pp can limp in and big pp's cannot:

[good] people play j10 qj kq 98 78 etc, but not a2 23 34 45.

even if you limp in with KK and hit a set on the flop with like q10K out, you are in extreme danger even if the flop isn't suited.

6s make their money because if there's a flop 468 they don't have to worry about someone playing 57.

 

[ChuckTs]

or even better, the flop can be textured to give your opponent some kind of a draw, and therefore get more money in the pot for you
ie KQ6
opponent has JT and you have 66