My 50k hands of 10NL

[DrazaFFT]

The point here is that you attacking his bluffing range cuz you know that he might bluff in that spot?? Right? Is a 2x 4bet and 5bet standard sizing? I thought that it should be 2,5x and that 5bet should be AI raise at 10bb eff stacks???

 

[ph0n3_j4ck]

No, my point here is that you should be 3betting more IP than OOP!

This hand just shows you the power of 3betting in position. He 4bet me, and i 5bet him light with KTs cause i thought he was weak. Obviously if he jams, i fold. Clearly he doesnt want to play a 5bet pot OOP by flat calling, so hes folding.

 

[jsh169]

I don't agree with the above statement, almost every reg I've played with has their highest 3 bet stats Oop. Why is this you ask? This is because ranges are the widest at the CO, But, and SB.

 

[DrazaFFT]

Well honestly, aren't we wasting a postflop value of such hands by turning them into a 3bet bluff instead of playing them postflop IP

 

[ph0n3_j4ck]

I'm going to give you one example.

Lets say you're on the button with KsQs and someone in the CO raises TT.

Here are your options and the merits.

1. Fold. Not a bad idea, but I would probably not fold KQs.

2. Call. A pretty good idea here to flat, as we have two overs. What if the flop comes A87r and he fires a cbet. We have to fold. (We're gonna miss the flop 67% of the time)

3. Raise. Also a good idea. Now we have control of the hand. Is he going to flat TT OOP agaisnt a 3bet from the button? If its the same A87r flop and we fire a 1/2-2/3 sized bet into the pot, can he call?

Mainly, I think you need help on understanding what a 3bet does. Keep reading up on that. Its a difficult concept to understand.

Well honestly, aren't we wasting a postflop value of such hands by turning them into a 3bet bluff instead of playing them postflop IP

 

[vinylspiros]

I'm going to give you one example.

Lets say you're on the button with KsQs and someone in the CO raises TT.

Here are your options and the merits.

1. Fold. Not a bad idea, but I would probably not fold KQs.

2. Call. A pretty good idea here to flat, as we have two overs. What if the flop comes A87r and he fires a cbet. We have to fold. (We're gonna miss the flop 67% of the time)

3. Raise. Also a good idea. Now we have control of the hand. Is he going to flat TT OOP agaisnt a 3bet from the button? If its the same A87r flop and we fire a 1/2-2/3 sized bet into the pot, can he call?

Mainly, I think you need help on understanding what a 3bet does. Keep reading up on that. Its a difficult concept to understand.

spot on man. pretty much option number 3 is the best ifyou know how to play it postflop. Also the 5bet with KThh u posted above is a great play imo.

 

[DrazaFFT]

I'm going to give you one example.

Lets say you're on the button with KsQs and someone in the CO raises TT.

Here are your options and the merits.

1. Fold. Not a bad idea, but I would probably not fold KQs.

2. Call. A pretty good idea here to flat, as we have two overs. What if the flop comes A87r and he fires a cbet. We have to fold. (We're gonna miss the flop 67% of the time)

3. Raise. Also a good idea. Now we have control of the hand. Is he going to flat TT OOP agaisnt a 3bet from the button? If its the same A87r flop and we fire a 1/2-2/3 sized bet into the pot, can he call?

Mainly, I think you need help on understanding what a 3bet does. Keep reading up on that. Its a difficult concept to understand.

I just dont see KQs as a good 3bet hand, sure with one way of thinking with all the blockers to his value range it does force nice amount of folds but against a regular who know that he couldnt flat 3bet OOP he would be in a 4bet or fold mode (notice that i play shallow stack and 4bet is most of the time AI bet) and if he 4bet shove we have to fold cuz KQ is crushed against his 4bet shove range and we wasted nice post flop hand and position by turning it into a 3bet bluff, imo call IP is the better option here so what if the dry Ahigh flop shows up, we can call cbet there cuz he will cbet his entire range on that board and there are a lot of cards that can improve us to FD or str8 draw so we can potentially call turn too and fold river if he 3barrels but there are a lot of guys who would give up at turn or river so we can have autobet spot...

I definitely appreciate your help and please dont think that im being ignorant by asking for help and then argues against it, just disagree with the logic behind this 3bet situation, i easy might be wrong but after reading some of the Bugs donkr articles on 3betting his logic on 3betting is different and for example following him there are 2 purposes of any bet including 3bet its either for value or for bluff we fold all of our bluff range and shove/call AI with our value range, following his logic KQs is never a 3b hand IP cuz its too weak to be value 3bet hand but too strong with lot of post flop potential to be turned into 3bet bluff...

 

[TimovieMan]

So if I get this straight, KQs would be a 3-bet hand if you were 100BB deep, but it's not because you're only playing 40BB deep?

 

[DrazaFFT]

So if I get this straight, KQs would be a 3-bet hand if you were 100BB deep, but it's not because you're only playing 40BB deep?

No. I havent said that, i dont play 100bb game but i would still cold call QK IP as opposed to 3betting them...
Can you tell me this, would your 3bet with QK be for value or for bluff, how do you feel when you get 4beted to 2,5x of your 3bet do you cold call and play in 4bet pot IP do you 5bet with what is almost 60% of your stack or you fold to a 4bet.

KQs hand is to weak to 3bet for value planning to stackoff cuz its crushed by opponent stackoff range, but its to strong to use it as a 3bet bluff which plans to fold to a aggression, thus the only logical move is to CC and play in position, IN POSITION...