3betting: when, what, why

[wrung24]

You put us in some tough spots here...

Profitable 3betting is a dynamic endeavor. There is no static approach that will be profitable in all circumstances. We are going to be 3betting different hands (for different reasons) against different opponents.

In your example situations, we have no reads... that makes it difficult to estimate our fold equity. Without that estimate, we probably shouldn't be bluffing. So, in your examples, I don't think we should ever 3bet bluff.

Yeah thats pretty much already been said mate, read through the thread.

 

[Double-A]

Equity is not necessarily the key factor here though WV.

What if villain calls all said hands and plays fit or fold postflop?

ie what if he calls with TT but folds on a Q-high flop?

Or if he flats with AQo but c/f the flops he misses?

Or if he calls with X hand, c/c lots of flops but c/f lots of turns?

The term 'value' doesn't necessarily refer strictly to our hand's equity edge. I mean by definition it means we get worse hands to call, but in this context can mean to garner later fold equity, if that makes sense.

First of all, really glad that ChuckT and WVHillBilly have joined this conversation...

Secondly, I think ChuckT's post is pointing us in the right direction...

Profitable 3betting depends on our hand (sometimes) but is also dependent on: how our opponent tends to react to 3bets and how he plays post flop.

We really need some simple pre-flop scenarios to discuss... against a small cast of various Villains...

Like, we're on the button and face a standard raise from a player in MP.

Which hands should we 3bet against:

A) A 13/9 w/ an 87% fold to 3bet.

B) A 15/7 w/ a 50% fold to 3bet.

C) A 27/15 w/ a 80% fold to 3bet.

D) A 35/22 w/ a 60% fold to 3bet.

If those aren't good Villains... feel free to switch them out.

Or just ignore me...

 

[ChuckTs]

Profitable 3betting depends on our hand (sometimes) but is also dependent on: how our opponent tends to react to 3bets and how he plays post flop.

Exactly.

Our 3bet range is kind of like the result of an equation, in which we factor table dynamics, our opponent's opening range, how he reacts to our 3bet, his postflop tendencies, etc.

The first 3 things we should look at are 1) his opening range, 2) how often he folds to 3bets, and 3) how often he 4bets. Your examples are a good start, but we need more info to draw any accurate conclusions without making general assumptions.

I made a video about 3betting when I was with stoxpoker, I'll probably post it/an article based on it soon. Should be helpful.

 

[bgomez89]

I like this one. It made me smile. I'll see, if I can try. We sit down for our very first hand in the BB. BAM!!! AA. This is going to be a good day. Fold, fold, fold, BTN raise, fold, so we 3-bet. We don't know anything about this guy. He doesn't know anything about us. He folds. So was it a bluff? Was it for value? I could of got the same value from 72o there. I had no real reason to believe he would call... I'm not saying it was a bad play at all. Was it a bluff though? My answer: it might as well have been.

a bluff is when youre betting to get better hands to fold, betting for value is when you bet or raise in hopes of getting worse hands to call. So it's impossible to 3bet AA as a bluff preflop because we aren't trying to get better hands to fold(since there are none) and we're hoping to get calls from worse hands

 

[Double-A]

Yeah thats pretty much already been said mate, read through the thread.

Sure.

But, but it was in a conversation where general/specific concepts/situations were all being mixed together. The information was there but... too much noise and not enough signal.

One poster stated, "I'm not getting anywhere, so I'll ask you a question. Why do you 3-bet AA, KK, QQ, AK?"

I did read through the thread... it gave me a headache.

Also, at one point you recommended,
"The best thing to do would be to post a hand in the hand analysis part of the forum and wait for an answer..."

I think that's great advice for someone trying to learn how to play TP or over pairs on various boards but, I don't think that's good advice for someone trying to learn the ins and outs of 3betting. Particularly, 3bet bluffs...

Mainly, because we aren't going to finding as many opportunities to profitably 3bet compared to our opportunities to play TP, open raise, or steal blinds.

But even though we don't do it often, 3betting can be hugely profitable when we do... so we need to talk/think about it away from the table.

I think this thread will be a great way to get a grasp the different concepts of 3betting. Then we can take it to the tables and get some HH...

Sometimes, how we have access to information is as important as the information itself.

 

[wrung24]

Ok so I've been analyzing some of my play based on the discussion going on here, and I think the stuff said has helped me discover what seems like a pretty big leak in my game.

Basically I think my 3bets based on a players tendencies postflop aren't too bad and I'm able to resteal my fair share of pots.

But I'm going way too far with hands that I think are in front of my opponents range, but are actually crushed by his continuation range. There are also a few hands where I'm in front preflop, but end up behind and losing a ton of money, I think I might need to brush up on playing in 3bet pots.

 

[Madmansam]

Gotcha. Maybe it was a bad way of trying to illustrate how poorly AJ generally does against villains likely continuation range which optimistically is like top 5%. AJ also suffers imo because often times when we do hit top pair and villain is willing to put money in postflop we're way behind.

Also if villain is as you described can't we get more value by flatting AJ and 3betting 57o or something similar?

Yes. This is exactly what I'm trying to get across here. I have been hearing stuff along these lines lately but haven't completely been able to wrap my head around this.

 

[GrimlyGrim]

a bluff is when youre betting to get better hands to fold, betting for value is when you bet or raise in hopes of getting worse hands to call. So it's impossible to 3bet AA as a bluff preflop because we aren't trying to get better hands to fold(since there are none) and we're hoping to get calls from worse hands

The problem is I'm trying to get people to see why they 3-bet. I watched Qtips great video on playing a maniac. Once the maniac left near the end he got AKs and 3-bet it. Why did he 3-bet it? Not just because it was AKs, but because he had showed down a lot of weak hands. He figured his opponent might think that he is a total maniac (based on the stats he was playing to get the maniac). If our reasons for 3-bets are dumb like, "we think it annoys him" and things like that, I really think you need to be thinking about it a lot more.

Do I think what I said was completely wrong? Not really since my goal is to make the most money possible in every hand, and I don't think that means you have to 3-bet the top hands everytime.

 

[Madmansam]

The problem is I'm trying to get people to see why they 3-bet. I watched Qtips great video on playing a maniac. Once the maniac left near the end he got AKs and 3-bet it. Why did he 3-bet it? Not just because it was AKs, but because he had showed down a lot of weak hands. He figured his opponent might think that he is a total maniac (based on the stats he was playing to get the maniac). If our reasons for 3-bets are dumb like, "we think it annoys him" and things like that, I really think you need to be thinking about it a lot more.

Do I think what I said was completely wrong? Not really since my goal is to make the most money possible in every hand, and I don't think that means you have to 3-bet the top hands everytime.

Do you think you AJo is one of the top hands?

 

[bgomez89]

The problem is I'm trying to get people to see why they 3-bet. I watched Qtips great video on playing a maniac. Once the maniac left near the end he got AKs and 3-bet it. Why did he 3-bet it? Not just because it was AKs, but because he had showed down a lot of weak hands. He figured his opponent might think that he is a total maniac (based on the stats he was playing to get the maniac). If our reasons for 3-bets are dumb like, "we think it annoys him" and things like that, I really think you need to be thinking about it a lot more.

Do I think what I said was completely wrong? Not really since my goal is to make the most money possible in every hand, and I don't think that means you have to 3-bet the top hands everytime.

you were saying that 3betting AA is a bluff without knowing enough information about an opponent. I said it was impossible because no matter what, 3betting AA always for value preflop.

 

[Chuck651]

3 bets

Well assuming you have no reads you would probably 3-bet mostly for value. If you're 3 betting in position make it 3.5x initial raise and if out of position 4x. 3-betting gets interesting when you have reads on an opponent. If we do have a read and we know our opponent is folding to 3-bets a high percentage of the time, we will be 3-bet bluffing more than 3-betting for value. Against this type of opponent we will be using only the very top of our range for value AA KK and possibly AK. And bluffing random suited connectorish hands or low pocket pairs (The hands we bluff with can be somewhat fluid because we know our opponent will be folding alot.) Against an opponent who is calling our raising our 3-bets very often we can start opening up our value range and not bluff him nearly as often. We can start throwing hands like JJ+ and in some extremes AQ for value. IMO, You're question is way too vague and you cannot really have an in depth conversation about 3-betting without any reads. Hope this helps.

 

[Double-A]

Yes. This is exactly what I'm trying to get across here. I have been hearing stuff along these lines lately but haven't completely been able to wrap my head around this.

It's difficult to understand...

When we 3bet AA, we're obviously doing it for value. We're rooting for our opponents to call or raise.

When we 3bet 72o, we're rooting for our opponents to fold. A huge % of the time... we're bluffing.

Now we have 2 categories, hands we 3bet bluff and hands we 3bet for value.

We can continue to add hands to each... KK is an obvious candidate for 3betting for value while 62o is an obvious candidate for 3bet bluffs. But, eventually we're going to run into some hands that won't fit neatly into either category. Deciding (profitably) what to do with them will require more information than the strength of our starting hand.

AJo appears to be one of those hands...

One perspective, is that 3betting AJo is bad. We won't be able to get many better hands to fold and when our opponent continues, we're likely behind.

However, we might be able to argue that 3betting in a specific situation is good because we have a large estimated fold equity RIGHT NOW... we just happen to have AJo. Our fold equity is the same regardless of our particular hand...

Counter argument... "Well, if we have a large amount of fold equity then it's probably because our opponent has a lot of hands in his range that are worse than AJo. Wouldn't we want to keep that opponent in the hand so that we can extract more value from our AJo on later streets?" Why 3bet him? We're turning AJo into a bluff? Why?

We're beginning to split how/why we play the game into two different perspectives with different goals:

1) Our goal, is to maximize our winnings on our "good" hands and minimize our losses on our "bad" hands.

and

2) Our goal is to exploit the mistakes of our opponents.

If we've found an opponent who makes mistakes in 3bet pots... he folds too often to 3bets or sometimes calls and then folds too often to cbets... it may be more profitable to start trying to exploit his mistakes (play our opponent) rather than to continue to play our cards (based on their static equity).

Jeez, I hope that wasn't too confusing...

 

[Madmansam]

Not confusing at all. And well written. Your post is very helpful. I think I kind of knew what you said but reading it really helps pull it together and helps me understand it better.

 

[rjeezy20146]

Agree with GrimlyGrim its good to 3bet with different type of hands to confused your opponents and get paid well when u make your hands. Just recently in the pca tourney a guy 5 bet with 75 and ended flopping trips against over pair and stack the guy. Not saying to 5 bet with 75 but mixing your game dosent hurt.