3betting SCs (moved from isoing limpers thread)

[feitr]

If you 3-bet someone as a bluff, you're going to be able to play 76s much more easily post-flop than K6 off. Obviously we want him to fold, but some percentage of the time he will call (and 4-bet). You can flop big draws and big made hands which you can play fast and generate FE. Also if the flop comes down KQ4 in a 3-bet pot, you fold your 76 easy, wtf am I doing now with K6? Call one bet? 2? Call flop fold turn or just fold flop? With 76s you're actually going to have flops you like a LOT more often and you're going to generate a lot more equity, both hand and folding.

Also an interesting part about bluffing with something like A4s compared to A7 as a bluff, is when you develop 3 and 4 betting dynamics later on. Obv this won't happen until you get to people who play a proper 3-bet game and can fold, but compare A5s to A5o.


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.585% 53.85% 00.74% 243423076 3328914.00 { JJ+, AKs, J9s, T8s, 97s, 86s, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AKo }
Hand 1: 45.415% 44.68% 00.74% 201967352 3328914.00 { A5s }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.701% 56.95% 00.75% 772274724 10232784.00 { JJ+, AKs, J9s, T8s, 97s, 86s, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AKo }
Hand 1: 42.299% 41.54% 00.75% 563404476 10232784.00 { A5o }

3bb is most "regs" win-rates.


The point I'm making there is by selecting hands with that little bit more equity for 3 and 4 bet bluffs makes a huge difference long term and will make your short term decisions easier.

Something to keep in mind tho is that the value of 3Bing gapped connectors, etc. isn't the equity that these hands have - we are clearly bluffing if we 3B 87s- the idea is to take hands that we cannot profitably call and turn it into a profitable hand when we 3B it. So 3Bing 67s on the button is actually pretty pointless - we can profitably call with 67s. Same with A4s, etc. If we have 96s however we don't have a profitable call and thus 3Bing and turning it into a +EV situation may be a preferrable option - and while 87s does flop better than 96s it doesn't flop that much better that it will overcome the fact that we are turning a neutral EV hand into a +EV hand (and it isn't like 87s flops that great in a 3B pot, where you are more looking to hit a TPTK type hand). Our 3B bluffing range is profitable if you are 3Bing a polarized range (which tends to be the case vs non-terrible players who will tend to 4B or fold oop and not peel with a wide range) because your range (or at least perceived range) should contain alot of good hands - most of the value of 3Bing the suited gaps comes from the fold equity generated by the strength of your range. It makes little sense to 3B 87s if you can profitably call it - the idea behind 3Bing light is that you take the very best of the bottom of your range (the best hands that you can't profitably call) and turn those hands from - or neutral EV to +EV. But you are right in that there are better hands to 3B light than K6o, especially if you aren't that great postflop.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Everyone seems to latch on to the reason why 3betting a hand like 96s or 85o is profitable in a vacume but ails to see why it isnt fitting their overall stratagy.

I started commenting on how wide someones 3betting range would nbeed to be for these types of hands to be in it and most people arent really picking up on that.

If you are 3betting these types of hands and all the other weak hands that are stronger than this 100% of the time in this situation, then fine.

However if you are 3 betting 96s or 85o with the intention (well you probably arent thinking that far ahead) but with the intention of folding a stronger hand next time this situation comes up just so you dont appear to be 3 beting all of the time then you are better off waiting for that stronger hand and folding the one you hold currently.

If you hold a hand in the 60th percentile then statistically speaking the next hand dealt will be stronger.

Why 3bet a weak hand knowing that next time this exact same situation arises you will likely be folding a stronger hand?

If your 3 betting range really is very wide then there isnt a problem, but when you are regularly folding better candidates just to balance your range, there is something fundamentally wrong with your 3betting strategy.

What sparked this off was the notion that you could be betting this wide range and hide the fact your range was wide. The resonse (although not so concisely) given was that the 3 bet stat was kept low by folding better hands in furure situations.

My point is that if you are thinking of 3 betting now as a steal but know now that you will be folding better hands in the same situation in the future.. wait for one of those better hands as you will increase your overall equity.

If you know now that you will be playing the same wide range the next time this situation comes up, continue as is.

 

[fx20736]

Everyone seems to latch on to the reason why 3betting a hand like 96s or 85o is profitable in a vacume but ails to see why it isnt fitting their overall stratagy.

I started commenting on how wide someones 3betting range would nbeed to be for these types of hands to be in it and most people arent really picking up on that.

If you are 3betting these types of hands and all the other weak hands that are stronger than this 100% of the time in this situation, then fine.

However if you are 3 betting 96s or 85o with the intention (well you probably arent thinking that far ahead) but with the intention of folding a stronger hand next time this situation comes up just so you dont appear to be 3 beting all of the time then you are better off waiting for that stronger hand and folding the one you hold currently.

If you hold a hand in the 60th percentile then statistically speaking the next hand dealt will be stronger.

Why 3bet a weak hand knowing that next time this exact same situation arises you will likely be folding a stronger hand?

If your 3 betting range really is very wide then there isnt a problem, but when you are regularly folding better candidates just to balance your range, there is something fundamentally wrong with your 3betting strategy.

What sparked this off was the notion that you could be betting this wide range and hide the fact your range was wide. The resonse (although not so concisely) given was that the 3 bet stat was kept low by folding better hands in furure situations.

My point is that if you are thinking of 3 betting now as a steal but know now that you will be folding better hands in the same situation in the future.. wait for one of those better hands as you will increase your overall equity.

If you know now that you will be playing the same wide range the next time this situation comes up, continue as is.

What if you 3bet suited connectors, gappers small pocket pairs and little suited Aces only some of the time? In this way your 3bet% shows up on someone's HUD as a fairly low number and thus you may get more folds when you are 3bet/ bluffing (semi-bluffing).

E.g.: you only 3bet 7h6h but fold 7d6d, 7c6c, 7s6s to a raise. The chance of being dealt 76s is .003. If you only 3bet 1/4 of that you would only be adding .00075 to your 3bet range. You could pick 8 or 9 combos like this and add in a few sn pp combos of 22-77 (like pp's that are Club/Spades only) and it would only add about 1.1% to your 3bet range but these hands would be so well disguised that if your 3bet value range was something like 4.36% and your 3bet semi-bluff range was .0011 your total 3bet range would be 5.49%. With that 3bet percentage no one is going to assume you are a light 3bettor but the 1st time you go to a showdown with 7h6h on 543 board you will probably confuse an observant opponent so that when you 3bet KK you may get a lot of action.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

What if you 3bet suited connectors, gappers small pocket pairs and little suited Aces only some of the time? In this way your 3bet% shows up on someone's HUD as a fairly low number and thus you may get more folds when you are 3bet/ bluffing (semi-bluffing).

it counts the number of times you have 3 bet and compares thet to the number of times you could have 3 bet.

Thats it

Why 3 bet light if you arent doing it all of the time?

 

[fx20736]

it counts the number of times you have 3 bet and compares thet to the number of times you could have 3 bet.

Thats it

Why 3 bet light if you arent doing it all of the time?

Yes, but it doesn't show what percentage of the time you are bluffing.

If your 3bet value range was 99+ AQs+AKo that would be 4.36% If you added 8 specific suited combos of suited connectors or gappers and only the all black pocket pairs 22-77 you would only be adding 1.1% to your total range. Therefore if someone sees that yor 3bet range is 5.47% they would probably never guess that you were 3betting scs, gappers and small pocket pairs. I'm guessing they would assume you were 3betting some AQ/AJ/KQ type hands and thus might feel really good if you 3bet them with 76s and they call with AK and the board comes down A54 and they either donk bet or check/call and the turn is a 8 or 3. If you re-raise them on the turn you will at the least get 2 streets of value and if they cannot let go of TPTK you can stack them.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Yes, but it doesn't show what percentage of the time you are bluffing.

If your 3bet value range was 99+ AQs+AKo that would be 4.36% If you added 8 specific suited combos of suited connectors or gappers and only the all black pocket pairs 22-77 you would only be adding 1.1% to your total range. Therefore if someone sees that yor 3bet range is 5.47% they would probably never guess that you were 3betting scs, gappers and small pocket pairs. I'm guessing they would assume you were 3betting some AQ/AJ/KQ type hands and thus might feel really good if you 3bet them with 76s and they call with AK and the board comes down A54 and they either donk bet or check/call and the turn is a 8 or 3. If you re-raise them on the turn you will at the least get 2 streets of value and if they cannot let go of TPTK you can stack them.

Please answer the important question.

Why 3 bet light if you arent going to do it all of the time.

Why 3bet light now knowing you will fold a better candidate as a result?

Equity matters more in this situation at micros than it does at midstakes. The single biggest adustemt people will make to you 3betting is not to 4 bet bluff where your equity is irrellivent, they will instead call making your overall equity when 3betting light an important factor.


3 betting A3o is light, 3betting 85o is light but A3o has a ton more equity and contains a blocker. So if you are likely to fold A3o as a result of 3 betting 85o you should not bet 85o in the first place.

 

[fx20736]

Please answer the important question.

Why 3 bet light if you arent going to do it all of the time.

I would do it to at first capitalize on a table image as a solid TAG with a reasonable 3bet range. Once I had a hand like this go to showdown it would confuse an opponent about my3bet range and would either get more action when I was 3betting for value or get a villain to not extract as much value from a good hand because they played cautiously as they had no idea what I 3bet them with.


Why 3bet light now knowing you will fold a better candidate as a result?

If I am only adding 1.1 % to 3bet range I am not folding any hand I would normally 3bet with. I think 3betting 76s would be better than AQ/AJ/KQ because your hand could easily be dominated.

Equity matters more in this situation at micros than it does at midstakes. The single biggest adustemt people will make to you 3betting is not to 4 bet bluff where your equity is irrellivent, they will instead call making your overall equity when 3betting light an important factor.


3 betting A3o is light, 3betting 85o is light but A3o has a ton more equity and contains a blocker. So if you are likely to fold A3o as a result of 3 betting 85o you should not bet 85o in the first place I would never dream of 3betting 85o or A3o. I'm talking suited connectors, weak suited Aces and small pocket pairs that have the ability to flop a ton of equity but are easy to get away from when I miss. .

The profit from 3betting comes mainly from folding. Even at the micros most players are folding to a 3bet 80% of the time or more. So when you 3bet 76s you will likely get folds 4 out of 5 times. Villain bets 3.5bb. You 3bet to 12bb. Villain folds 80% of the time so your EV is 3.5bb* .8= 2.8 (ignoring the blinds as rake). If you get called you have a chance to flop 2 pair, trips an OESD or a Flush Draw. I don't know what percentage you have of flopping one of these but I'm guessing it's around 20%. If you check/ folded everytime you missed you would lose ((12bb*.8)*.2)= 1.92. Therefore you are slightly plus EV when you 3bet, get folds 80% of the time and check/fold when you miss. Now all the times you make your straight, flush, full house add alot of profit.There's more math here and I am at work without access to Stove or PT3 but do you see my point?

 

[Stu_Ungar]

The profit from 3betting comes mainly from folding. Even at the micros most players are folding to a 3bet 80% of the time or more. So when you 3bet 76s you will likely get folds 4 out of 5 times. Villain bets 3.5bb. You 3bet to 12bb. Villain folds 80% of the time so your EV is 3.5bb* .8= 2.8 (ignoring the blinds as rake). If you get called you have a chance to flop 2 pair, trips an OESD or a Flush Draw. I don't know what percentage you have of flopping one of these but I'm guessing it's around 20%. If you check/ folded everytime you missed you would lose ((12bb*.8)*.2)= 1.92. Therefore you are slightly plus EV when you 3bet, get folds 80% of the time and check/fold when you miss. Now all the times you make your straight, flush, full house add alot of profit.There's more math here and I am at work withoutr access to Stove or PT3 but do you see my point?

You are not answering the question posed you are answering a different question.

The question is again

Why 3 bet light if you arent going to do it all of the time?

We arent talking about folding big value hands we are talking about why you will raise 76s some times but not all times in the same situation and why you may fold hands like A3o as a result of raising hands like 76s when A3o has better equity.

 

[fx20736]

You are not answering the question posed you are answering a different question.

The question is again

Why 3 bet light if you arent going to do it all of the time?

We arent talking about folding big value hands we are talking about why you will raise 76s some times but not all times in the same situation and why you may fold hands like A3o as a result of raising hands like 76s when A3o has better equity.

I did answer:

I would do it to at first capitalize on a table image as a solid TAG with a reasonable 3bet range. Once I had a hand like this go to showdown it would confuse an opponent about my3bet range and would either get more action when I was 3betting for value or get a villain to not extract as much value from a good hand because they played cautiously as they had no idea what I 3bet them with.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I did answer:

I would do it to at first capitalize on a table image as a solid TAG with a reasonable 3bet range. Once I had a hand like this go to showdown it would confuse an opponent about my3bet range and would either get more action when I was 3betting for value or get a villain to not extract as much value from a good hand because they played cautiously as they had no idea what I 3bet them with.

Then how are you adding only 1.1% to your 3bet range whilst at the same time 3betting All SCs and weak aces?

 

[fx20736]

Then how are you adding only 1.1% to your 3bet range whilst at the same time 3betting All SCs and weak aces?

Stu,

I'm NOT. Please re-read # 28 in this thread.

 

[LuckyChippy]

I kind of understand what you're saying and I assume it's not aimed at me. I rarely 3-bet light at my stakes anyway. In 16k hands this year (lol) I've 3-bet 25 times what I would consider in that spot light (I've 3-bet things like 77 or AT but always been because of a terrible fish I feel it would be profitable to do against).

Of those 25 hands only twice has been anything other than A2s-A5s. Once was 67s and 98o. You can clearly see where the top of my 3-bet bluff range is. I feel I can profitably flat 78s and maybe 9To (against the right villain, which is difficult to find) and I have actually flat 76s once but that is right around the point where I'm comfortable with flatting at my skill level and stakes.

I have a clear range and set of circumstances to 3-bet bluff (I've 3-bet bluffed 12 times on the button, 5 in the CO and 4 times from the SB and BB each).

For the most part I think at 2nl/5nl, playing small SC's for anything other than a BTN steal or CO raise with a tight BTN is probably a leak. Fishes like to call and I like to make TP against them.


To feitr, I agree with everything you said there, the sad thing is that 76s is around the point where I start folding to a raise at my stakes and skill level. I'm basically doing what you suggest but my cut off line is different. It's hard to find spots at my stakes where it's correct to flat or 3-bet SC's anyway.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Stu,

I'm NOT. Please re-read # 28 in this thread.

I have and it dosent make any sense.

You are folding better hands just to keep your 3bet stat down.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Stu,

I'm NOT. Please re-read # 28 in this thread.

E.g.: you only 3bet 7h6h but fold 7d6d, 7c6c, 7s6s to a raise

Lets apply that to all suited connectors 98s - 54s.

This means you would play 54h yet fold 98d

How is that not folding a better hand just so that you can play a weaker one?

All suited aces have more equity than SC, so applying the same logic we now have you folding AXs because its diamonds just so you can play 54 hearts.

How is this not a flawed strategy, sacrificing equity at stakes where the equity is important?

 

[fx20736]

I have and it dosent make any sense.

You are folding better hands just to keep your 3bet stat down.

Not at all.

I am adding 76s but ONLY when it is 7Hs6H. That is adding about 1/12 of 1% to total 3bet range. If I did the same by adding say AS3S, 9C8C, etc. and only 7c7s, 6c6s, 5c5s,4c4s,3c3s,2c2s I could completely disguise thes hands. After all, if you picked 8 combos of suited connectors (specific suits and ranks) and 7 combos of pocket pairs (say Club& Spade pps only) then you would only add 1.1% to your range. Considering AQ/ AJ/ KQ are 1.21% each you could add these semi-bluff hands and totally disguise your range.

Lets apply that to all suited connectors 98s - 54s.

This means you would play 54h yet fold 98d

How is that not folding a better hand just so that you can play a weaker one?

Technically yes, but you are not 3betting because of the EV of 3betting 9d8d. You are doing it to make a better hand fold. If you look in your PT db I bet the EV of 98s, if it is positive is probably around .05BB/ hand. 54s is probably not much worse. The Truth is after you get down the EV chart anything worse than AJo, KQo, QJs, 77 is only yielding mere fractions of a BB/ hand so you we aren't sacrificing much at all.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Technically yes, but you are not 3betting because of the EV of 3betting 9d8d. You are doing it to make a better hand fold. If you look in your PT db I bet the EV of 98s, if it is positive is probably around .05BB/ hand. 54s is probably not much worse. The Truth is after you get down the EV chart anything worse than AJo, KQo, QJs, 77 is only yielding mere fractions of a BB/ hand so you we aren't sacrificing much at all.

So you are sacrificing equity when called just to play weaker hands. When you could achieve exactly the same number of 3 bets in the same situation yet do it with higher equity.

Sounds like a well thought out plan.

 

[LuckyChippy]

Yeah that doesn't make any sense Fx and I see where Stu is coming from. It really doesn't matter if you only add a certain percentage by only adding all the SC diamonds or something, we don't do it for stats.

We 3-bet A2s-A5s because they are the best things to 3-bet that I would otherwise fold. I 3-bet 67s because I personally would otherwise fold it against a reg with a wide range.

You don't need to make up arbitrary rules.

 

[fx20736]

Yeah that doesn't make any sense Fx and I see where Stu is coming from. It really doesn't matter if you only add a certain percentage by only adding all the SC diamonds or something, we don't do it for stats.

We 3-bet A2s-A5s because they are the best things to 3-bet that I would otherwise fold. I 3-bet 67s because I personally would otherwise fold it against a reg with a wide range.

You don't need to make up arbitrary rules.

Look, I am not advocating folding good hands, we're not talking about folding Pocket Jacks so we can add a well disguised 76s. I think if you really look at your total profit in terms of BB/hand in your PT db you will see that folding 98s some of the time so you can 3bet 76s some of the time will have virtually no impact on your overall winrate. of the 169 total hands in Hold Em only 3 or 4 will have a profit of more than 1BB/ hand (AA KK QQ & maybe JJ). Even AKo will only be yielding .4-.6 BB/ hand and hands like AQo, 88, KJs, etc. will probably give you .2 - .3 BB/ hand. Suited Connectors from T9s -65s will have very small BB/ hands so to say I am sacrificing equity here is just quibbling. It's like arguing about who gets to sit on which Deck Chair on the Titanic.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Look, I am not advocating folding good hands, we're not talking about folding Pocket Jacks so we can add a well disguised 76s. I think if you really look at your total profit in terms of BB/hand in your PT db you will see that folding 98s some of the time so you can 3bet 76s some of the time will have virtually no impact on your overall winrate. of the 169 total hands in Hold Em only 3 or 4 will have a profit of more than 1BB/ hand (AA KK QQ & maybe JJ). Even AKo will only be yielding .4-.6 BB/ hand and hands like AQo, 88, KJs, etc. will probably give you .2 - .3 BB/ hand. Suited Connectors from T9s -65s will have very small BB/ hands so to say I am sacrificing equity here is just quibbling. It's like arguing about who gets to sit on which Deck Chair on the Titanic.

You are playing a game where the difference between a huge winner and breakeven is 3or 4 bb/100 so these little differences do count

 

[fx20736]

You are playing a game where the difference between a huge winner and breakeven is 3or 4 bb/100 so these little differences do count

Ok, I'm talkng hypotheticals anyway as I am back to a 8/7 game right now. I am 3betting a pretty small range, only for value. I tend to get intrigued by these Game Theory arguments but really they have no application in my game at my stakes.

In honestly reviewing the arc of my 5nl trajectory in the past 3 weeks I think I was doing ok playing a pretty straight forward 14/13 game for the 1st 10 days but I think I got carried away by some bluffing that was working well and started doing it too much with fairly predictable consequences. Mix in the inevitable turn in variance and I crashed like a B-17 over Stuttgart in early 1943 before the USAAF realized that conducting Daylight Bombing Raids without escort fighters was suicide.

I took a day off and returned to my nitty persona yesterday. I feel calmer right now. I just hope the dialectic in my poker brain gets closer to equilibrium as right now I am really an adolescent in terms of Poker development. Hopefully a few P-51s in my brain will chase away the Focke-Wulfs and Messerschmidts so I can return to winning poker.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

I'm confused. Why does the thread title say "suited connectors" when the OP shows a HH where we 3bet suited one-gapers?

Fwiw, I'm with feitr here. 3bet range should be for value, than add the best hands that you can't really flat call for a profit. Obviously the definition of "for value" and "that you can't really flat call for a profit" varies immensely depending on the villains already in the hand and our position.

 

[LuckyChippy]

For a start hands in HE don't have an innate set value. You think I can play 76s as profitably as durrr? or even Belgo or WV? I can't and I've noticed it's a mistake you keep making in saying that such a hand isn't profitable when it might just not be profitable for you.

At the same time, for a specific person hands are more profitable than others. They have more equity and as Stu said, the margins of profitability as one moves up in stakes become so thin that all of this matters a lot.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Ok, I'm talkng hypotheticals anyway as I am back to a 8/7 game right now.

I would play 8/7 too if i could get away with it, i.e. if villains gave me action anyway when I decided to play a hand.

The major reason we play a wider range is that playing a tight range make you predictably, which helps your opponents play perfectly against you if they notice it. But if they don't, then tight is right.

Do you get action from villains playing hands that are clearly dominated by your tight range? Like A7o calling down 3 barrels on a Axxxx board? If you do, don't change a thing. If you don't, but only if you don't, you need to consider loosening up.


EDIT: I've never played below 10nl - and that was years ago - which is why i need to ask questions instead of providing answers.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

The main difference between stakes as you move up (in relation to this stuff) is what people do when faced with a 3bet.

Higher stakes, 4bet or fold or flat with a plan to take the pot down (so if you hold a SC and it hits you are likely to get stacks in when flatted)

Micros people call 3bets too much and rarely 4bet bluff. Hence your equity is more important, plus should your SC hit hard, you are always the one having to do the betting and since you don run all that many 100bb 3 street bluffs you get too many folds when you hit.

So in games where you are more lilkely to get called and weak hands will get to SD, high card value rules.

In games where you are less likely to get called but instead 4bet or folded hand strength is less important. Single high card strength is less important when flatted as its less likely you are being flatted by hands you could hit a single pair, get to SD and win so hands like SC go up in value.

So when playing a game where the hand strength of your 3bet bluffs do matter you cant be bluffing with one hand and then folding a better one just to keep your stats down.

Can you see why?

 

[fx20736]

I'm confused. Why does the thread title say "suited connectors" when the OP shows a HH where we 3bet suited one-gapers?

Fwiw, I'm with feitr here. 3bet range should be for value, than add the best hands that you can't really flat call for a profit. Obviously the definition of "for value" and "that you can't really flat call for a profit" varies immensely depending on the villains already in the hand and our position.

So you don't believe in 3betting with a polarized range. So your value and bluffing ranges are merged which implies 3betting AQ/ AJ?????