Would you have called preflop here?

Marklar

Marklar

Rock Star
I've got pocket fours. I'm out of position and I've got a raise and a reraise in front of me. But all this means to me is, if I spike a set I'm taking down a huge pot. My biggest fear preflop was the initial raiser reraising the guy that raised him... in which case I definately would have folded. Other than that I want to see a flop. So I spike a set, actually flop a full house, but get outdrawn to a bigger fh.

Full Tilt Poker Game #1393499681: Table Lulu - $0.25/$0.50 - Pot Limit Hold'em - 19:56:18 ET - 2006/12/11
Seat 1: thedevilxxx ($9.25)
Seat 2: Dix ($49)
Seat 3: rat420 ($15.85)
Seat 4: silvermedal ($46.65)
Seat 5: dmbfan41cn ($24.50)
Seat 7: bigal0469 ($16.10), is sitting out
Seat 8: deathpod ($27.85)
Seat 9: marklar_22 ($101)
hunter91305 sits down
dmbfan41cn posts the small blind of $0.25
bigal0469 has returned
deathpod posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to marklar_22 [4c 4h]
marklar_22 calls $0.50
thedevilxxx folds
bigal0469 stands up
Dix raises to $1.35
rat420 folds
silvermedal raises to $3.40
dmbfan41cn folds
deathpod folds
marklar_22 calls $2.90
Dix calls $2.05
*** FLOP *** [4s 5s 5h]
marklar_22 checks
tacobell12 sits down
Dix checks
silvermedal bets $10.95
marklar_22 raises to $43.80
Dix folds
silvermedal: OK, if you have a 5 I'm coming accross the table
silvermedal calls $32.30, and is all in
silvermedal: sick
marklar_22 shows [4c 4h]
silvermedal shows [Ah Ad]
Uncalled bet of $0.55 returned to marklar_22
*** TURN *** [4s 5s 5h] 8♥
*** RIVER *** [4s 5s 5h 8h] A♣
marklar_22 shows a full house, Fours full of Fives
silvermedal shows a full house, Aces full of Fives
silvermedal wins the pot ($94.45) with a full house, Aces full of Fives
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $97.45 | Rake $3
Board: [4s 5s 5h 8h Ac]
Seat 1: thedevilxxx didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Dix folded on the Flop
Seat 3: rat420 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: silvermedal (button) showed [Ah Ad] and won ($94.45) with a full house, Aces full of Fives
Seat 5: dmbfan41cn (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: bigal0469 is sitting out
Seat 8: deathpod (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: marklar_22 showed [4c 4h] and lost with a full house, Fours full of Fives
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
The call is OK, as you say, you're just trying to hit a set, an are looking at $2.90 for a shot at $47+. You get into difficulty though when the raiser and re-raiser have hands like AK and aren't going to put much more in the pot, so calling the re-raise might not be positive EV. Plus anyone with a pocket pair may also hit a set and stack you.

I'd be less inclined to call here though because you're sitting in between the re-raiser and the original raiser, and there's a chance you may get squeezed. The idea is to get in cheap and they've made it more expensive.

Did you think about slow-playing this on the flop? If you just call, you might keep the third player in, and if you're lucky he'll be on something like a flush draw, or may think he has odds to call with overcards. If the bettor does have something like AK, you won't get any more on the pot with a raise, and giving a free card may turn up an Ace or King which will pay you off.

On the other hand, AA has 4 outs on the flop and is about 17% to outdraw you, so playing it fast isn't too bad.
 
Beriac

Beriac

Guest
I think the call is a little expensive with such a low pair. Even if you hit your set, you can't assume villain will risk his entire stack against you, so you can't factor the whole $47 into your implied odds. You're ~1/8 to hit your set, which means you'd need to win ~$3*8 = $24 to justify the call, and I just don't like the odds that you get that much of villain's money into the pot if you hit your set. I like to call very small raises or ideally limpers with low pair, then let it go with ease on the flop if I don't hit.

Too many times the flop will come QT5, your opponent will bet, and you'll have to fold (compared to the amount of times it comes QT4 and you hit your set, and how much cash are you able to extract?).
 
Marklar

Marklar

Rock Star
I thought about slow playing it but with the guys reraise i figured he had a big pair like aces or kings and my big raise would have looked like a bluff with the two 5s out there. Like he said in the chat "if you have a 5 I'm coming across the table". He probably put me on an overpair like 10s or jacks.
 
A

alan1983

Visionary
Speaking only with my limited experience, i tend to stay away from small pairs in raised post that arent headsup. Seems like most of the time someone will catch a piece, and even when they dont, youre never anywhere near certain about your strength with a flop full of overcards.

now postflop was just unlucky.
 
Marklar

Marklar

Rock Star
size doesnt matter

I only called for set value. With the guys reraise he probably only had a few possible hands. AA, KK, QQ, or AK. As far as pairs preflop I always limp in with anything less than Jacks, depending on position, Ill raise with 10s+ in late position to try and win the pot preflop. If I'm reraised and I'm holding jacks or queens I dismiss it as a big pair and look for a set. So whether I had 44 or JJ i would have played it the same way, fold if no set.
 
A

alan1983

Visionary
Yeah but 2.90 was too big to call i think, and theres still Dix who raised it in first place behind you, and he might re-raise as well. But you gotta take a chance once in a while i guess.
 
Beriac

Beriac

Guest
I still think it's an expensive raise to call with 44 and that if you add up that kind of hand over time (ie, every time someone raises to you and you have 44), it will cost you more in missed flops than you will make up in hit sets.
 
Marklar

Marklar

Rock Star
so you think i should only call if i believe i can get 8x the raise in return?
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
I think if you're closing the action you're just about justified in calling if your opponents are bad enough to give you their stacks if they flop TPTK or suchlike (and you flop a set obv).

The fact the original raiser still has to act sways me greatly towards folding though, simply because you cannot call a reraise from him.
 
Beriac

Beriac

Guest
Marklar, you've taken a very specific comment and generalized it quite a bit.

This is a scenario where you take a low-value holding (low pocket pair) and try to see a flop in the hopes that it becomes a high-value holding (trips). I assume broadly that you cannot take down the pot with the low pocket pair unimproved, but also that you will definitely win the pot if you hit trips. These are simple assumptions obviously, but I think they even out approximately. From there, if I have my math right you'll hit your set approximately one out of every 8 times that you see the flop. So in this specific case of a low pocket pair pre-flop, yes I think you should only call if the implied odds suggest you can make 8x your money in the event of a win. If not, then I don't see why you'd call.

Do I think that's true for calling any raise? Of course not. If you are dealt QQ, then it is highly unlikely (to downright impossible) that you're an 8:1 underdog to win the hand. You're likely ahead pre-flop. I wouldn't need to expect 8:1 on my money to call a raise with this hand, because I'm not an 8:1 underdog. If you believe you're ahead, you should not only be calling bets but raising yourself.
 
zebranky

zebranky

Rock Star
why plays PP at all?

I gotta agree with Beriac on his read - it just isn't worth calling this one, especially if you're not closing the action.

The only value of a small pair is to hit trips (or better). I won't say they're useless in any other circumstance, but your EV is zero or worse. That magic factor of 8 does apply, but you should only apply it to the implied odds, not the pot odds. Think about it this way - if you call, and hit the set, are you going to be able to extract 8 times what you called with? Is your opponents stack deep enough to pay you off, and is he representing a hand that will pay you off?
 
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