Where did I go wrong?

E

ez2cy

Enthusiast
Ok, won't put down the finish to the hand, but you'll guess I lost. Why? Didn't push enough? Too weak of a bet?

STAGE #503933160: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $0.50 - 2006-11-28 16:11:35 (ET)
Table: FREDRICKS DR. (real money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - EZ2CY ($61.60 in chips)
Seat 4 - TWEETY1947 ($81.10 in chips)
Seat 5 - SKIMP ($43.70 in chips)
Seat 6 - RUNLIKEPRE ($41 in chips)
Seat 1 - ROB_GEORDIE9 ($104.75 in chips)
Seat 2 - KARMAFLOW ($48.75 in chips)
TWEETY1947 - Posts small blind $0.25
SKIMP - Posts big blind $0.50
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to EZ2CY [Jd 10d]
RUNLIKEPRE - Raises $2.50 to $2.50
ROB_GEORDIE9 - Folds
KARMAFLOW - Folds
EZ2CY - Calls $2.50
TWEETY1947 - Folds
SKIMP - Folds
*** FLOP *** [4s Js 10h]
RUNLIKEPRE - Bets $2.50
EZ2CY - Raises $5 to $5
RUNLIKEPRE - Calls $2.50
*** TURN *** [4s Js 10h] [7s]
RUNLIKEPRE - Checks
EZ2CY - Bets $5
RUNLIKEPRE - Calls $5
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
1) Fold preflop. An argument could be made considering you're holding suited connectors with position and you both have enough chips to make it worth your PF call and sweeten up your implied odds, but it's better just to dump it. Especially if you're going to play it like you did on later streets (ie not take advantage of the great situation)...

2) https://www.cardschat.com/showthread.php?t=71694&highlight=stop+minraising
You've now hit your hand, but why raise so little? Get good value from your hand - if your opponent is holding an overpair, he's definitely going to pay you off. You also don't want people drawing (say XXs or KQ) cheaply. By minraising, you're giving them great odds to continue. Bump it up to say 8$ or so to sweeten the pot and to make sure he doesn't see a cheap turn.

3) Now the spade has hit and you don't know where you're at. I'll throw out a ~2/3 pot-sized bet here to see if you're still ahead, then act accordingly to his reaction.
 
brown110

brown110

Guest
The minimum raise after the flop wasn't a great play in my mind. Its small enough that he won't fold. You probably should have made a larger bet here to kind of feel out what hand he may be holding and to push out any flush draws.
 
M

Mr. November

Guest
Yeah, you have to make a larger bet in this spot. J10? with a flush draw appearing on the board is a scary spot, and if anyone has KQ, Q9, 98, or 2 spades, they're going to go ahead and draw against you. I'd make it $7 or $8 in this spot...
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Obv. he's 4 times more likely to have a flush draw on the Turn than the flop, so you should be betting bigger on the Turn. Top 2 pair is almost certainly good, but you still need to bet pot (or overbet it) since there's a good chance he has a spade in with his high pair, and you can get counterfeited anyway with a 4 or a 7, or if he hits a set... so that's 14 outs if he has a high pair with the spade, making nearly 30% chance to outdraw you with one card to come. Never try to slow play a flopped 2 pair, because there's too much chance of being outdrawn.
 
zebranky

zebranky

Rock Star
overbet

my vote is to massively overbet this pot on the flop. The pot is around $8 when the flop action gets to you (blinds + PF bet/call + flop bet). $8 would be the minimum bet/raise I would make, because you have to price out the drawing straights and flushes. For example, if you made it 8 to go, then your opponent needs to put $5.50 in against a pot that is no around $16 - about 3:1 odds. that's roughly the same as the odds of him hitting a flush (if he has two spades), so a flush draw calls. A larger raise (say $12) makes him put $9.50 into a $20 pot, so 2:1 odds - bad odds for most draws. Then your only callers should be over-pairs (which you are beating), AJ of KJ (still beating them) or double draws (straight and flush), which is unlikely.

And yes, by all means bet the turn - at least 1/2 the pot. That gives your opponents bad odds to draw for almost anything. Any drwaing hand should fold - and only monster hands will raise, so you should be able to judge where you are fairly easily at that point, and fold/bet/raise the river accordingly.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
And yes, by all means bet the turn - at least 1/2 the pot. That gives your opponents bad odds to draw for almost anything. Any drwaing hand should fold.
Not quite - high pair with Spade has around 28% equity on the turn, so can call a bet of up to 2/3 pot on pot-odds alone, without implied odds. He probably doesn't know he has all those outs, but will probably call with an overpair anyway.
 
zebranky

zebranky

Rock Star
OOPS

Not quite - high pair with Spade has around 28% equity on the turn, so can call a bet of up to 2/3 pot on pot-odds alone, without implied odds. He probably doesn't know he has all those outs, but will probably call with an overpair anyway.

yeah, I see your point - I guess I should amend tht to 2/3 pot bet, but you hit the important part - you're not really betting to force an overpair w/ spade out, only to make it so that over multiple repititions you are making a positive gain.

whatever the bet, though, I think you have to fold if re-raised.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Ask yourself why you did what you did at each stage of the hand. You should come up with something like this...

- "I called the 5bb UTG raise preflop because I am in position and have a marginal hand with strong drawing possibilities. If I miss the flop it will be easy enough for me to get away from my hand, and if I hit a huge flop I am likely to win a big pot as the UTG raiser has to be strong. The problem comes when I hit something like TPWK and face action - then I am leaving myself with the possibility of having to make a very tough decision. We both have reasonable stacks though, so my implied odds are decent."

Really, the pf call isn't great but it's not terrible as there is some justification for it.

- "I minraised the flop because, umm.... errr.... uhhhh..... becuase I couldn't be bothered to use the bet slider?"

Seriously why minraise the flop? I'm genuinely asking because I see people do this all the time and I see absolutely no logical reason for doing it. Raise more.

- "I bet less than 1/3 pot on the turn because I am scared"

Yeah, if villain is a thinking player, this will be really obvious to him. No way do you minraise the flop with a draw - the draw hits and you make a tiny little bet - it's pretty obvious now that you didn't like the card and if villain does have the As or suchlike you're not pricing him out. Bet more.
 
E

ez2cy

Enthusiast
Thanks for the replies. Everyone said what I thought they'd say, I'm an idiot, but thanks for saying it in a nice way.

My thought process on the hand was to try to get him to push back, thinking I'm ahead and would make more money. Wrong! Most of the time at these micro limits, I've found that someone with just top pair will play it like they have the Royal Flush. Yes I did slow down in the betting as the spades kept coming out, fearing the flush. Again, I screwed up. I take it now as a lesson learned.

*** RIVER *** [4s Js 10h 7s] [Qs]
RUNLIKEPRE - Bets $8
EZ2CY - Calls $8
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RUNLIKEPRE - Shows [As Jh] (Flush, ace high)
EZ2CY - Mucks
RUNLIKEPRE Collects $39.70 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
 
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