6 max .10 .25 BB

MP Raise .75 - Starting Stack $25 (Villain)

Button Ks Jd call - Starting Stack $25 (Hero)

Action folds through

Flop 9hjh9s

Villain checks Hero bet 3/4th pot Villain calls

Turn 9d

Villain checks hero bet 3/4th pot Villain calls

River 3c

Villain goes all in for near pot size bet.

Hero should.......?
Obviously quads in back of mind but possible slowed played QQ? What should hero do?

Scared money don't make money

Have to call

Preflop is a very bad call, you will lose money in the long run. I don't even call AJo and KQo there, I 3bet them. If you're gonna play this hand you should def. 3bet, though I think folding is better.

I don't think you'll see many bluffs in that spot if any...unless you're playing a monkey type. Especially since you bet so big flop and turn.

Now can you see why the preflop call was bad?

Your bet sizes are very large on this kind of board, because you are either way ahead or way behind. Half pot or even less will work better against decent opponents. As for Villains line if he had quads and decided to trap, why would he suddenly change his mind on the river on a card, that is completely safe for you? That makes no sense at all. So to me this smells like a bullshit bluff, and for that reason I would call.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Your bet sizes are very large on this kind of board, because you are either way ahead or way behind. Half pot or even less will work better against decent opponents. As for Villains line if he had quads and decided to trap, why would he suddenly change his mind on the river on a card, that is completely safe for you? That makes no sense at all. So to me this smells like a bullshit bluff, and for that reason I would call.

You're contradicting yourself in this post I think. What bluffs can he even have by c/c two large bets on that board? An open ender is a fold vs 3/4 normally OOP even when the board is not paired but here why would he call when hero is repping a boat?

Hard to even find bluffs in his range...he's not going to shove 77 there.

Originally Posted by fast_frog

Preflop is a very bad call, you will lose money in the long run. I don't even call AJo and KQo there, I 3bet them. If you're gonna play this hand you should def. 3bet, though I think folding is better.

I don't think you'll see many bluffs in that spot if any...unless you're playing a monkey type. Especially since you bet so big flop and turn.

Now can you see why the preflop call was bad?

I usually don't call in position unless I have a pocket pair but wanted to mix it up. I understand your 3/bet fold but still a little confused how that is the obvious choice?

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Your bet sizes are very large on this kind of board, because you are either way ahead or way behind. Half pot or even less will work better against decent opponents. As for Villains line if he had quads and decided to trap, why would he suddenly change his mind on the river on a card, that is completely safe for you? That makes no sense at all. So to me this smells like a bullshit bluff, and for that reason I would call.

That was my thinking, I called and he had quads lol. But in regards to sizing, practicing this new book I read with how to play small stakes online and in it it says to always bet 3/4 with top pair, flush draws, or open enders on all 2 way flops. Been using it and it has made me some money.

If you flop a fullhouse check, or call his bet , do not scare them
away. If he bets on the river bet the pot.

Originally Posted by fast_frog

What bluffs can he even have by c/c two large bets on that board?

Anything with two overcards, which is drawing to a better boat and dont want to give up. AK, AQ, KQ. It not a good play, but neither is it a good play to take this line with any hand, that beat hero, for the reasons I already explained. So he is for sure a bad player doing something bad, and then it is up to us to figure out what

Originally Posted by zbalogh

I usually don't call in position unless I have a pocket pair but wanted to mix it up. I understand your 3/bet fold but still a little confused how that is the obvious choice?

Because an EP range is very strong and you stand to be dominated a ton when you hit a K or a J, which as evident in this hand. You lose a stack when you should have lost 0, that is a HUGE hit to your winrate from a single hand. Just think about it...one mistake like that every 1000 hands means 10bb/100 loss which is impossible to overcome.

You need solid preflop ranges to avoid this kind of situation or it'll be very hard to become a winning player. Just watch some vids or find some ranges online, much better than guessing. I guarantee KJo will never be in the calling range there.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Anything with two overcards, which is drawing to a better boat and dont want to give up. AK, AQ, KQ. It not a good play, but neither is it a good play to take this line with any hand, that beat hero, for the reasons I already explained. So he is for sure a bad player doing something bad, and then it is up to us to figure out what

Sorry but I think you're leveling yourself hard at this point, putting bluffs in his range because you like your hand and don't want to let go.

AK/AQ have zero reason to call, not getting even close to pot odds with 6 outs (~12% chance to hit.

Now let's say they do hit they can still lose to your quads and not get value - are you really calling a shove on a K or A? what bluffs would you put in his range then? Furthermore they would have no reason to bluff as they beat your bluffs.

From experience I also think most people don't really bluff those kind of boards unless they're whales or good players that can recognize having a range advantage and exploiting that...not the case here.

id preffer a smaller sizing on flop and turn cause what can he call you with that is worse ? TT and a worse J , thats it. if u bet smaller then he can call more smaller pairs and draws also you pot control so its less stress when he decides to bluff the river.

Originally Posted by fast_frog

Sorry but I think you're leveling yourself hard at this point, putting bluffs in his range because you like your hand and don't want to let go.

Donk shoving the river only makes sense, if he wants hero to fold. If its for value, he might as well have check-jammed the turn. For sure its possible, that he is just really bad and clicking buttons. But personally I would make the hero call, because his story makes no sense. That being said I think, the problems on this river is created by heros bet sizing. If Hero bet smaller, he keep Villains range wider and stay away from commitment to the pot.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Donk shoving the river only makes sense, if he wants hero to fold. If its for value, he might as well have check-jammed the turn. For sure its possible, that he is just really bad and clicking buttons. But personally I would make the hero call, because his story makes no sense. That being said I think, the problems on this river is created by heros bet sizing. If Hero bet smaller, he keep Villains range wider and stay away from commitment to the pot.

This is exactly what I meant by leveling. You are giving all the importance to what you think should make sense and zero to what range he actually has. He can't have any bluffs after c/c two big sizes, which you even admit but then disregard because "it doesn't make sense".

Let me askyou this: are you calling KQ as well? Since you think he only has bluffs and it doesn't make sense for AK or small pairs to bluff, why not? He should only have worse and you should call, right?

You have to think about ranges and how they interact with each other first, lines making sense secondly. It's a common trap, but if someone can't have any bluffs in a spot you need to fold even the top of your range (unless it beats some of his value) or you end up owning yourself. I'm not trying to be patronizing, I fell into that trap many, maaaaaany times, I'm sure I still do.

By the way, his line does make sense, as he is the stronger range by far (more 9x, all the overpairs vs none, more Jx) he can be strong and protect all possible lines. A solver will probably have a good amount of strong hands in this line. You probably just think it doesn't make sense because you don't see it often.

It dépends on the situation pre flop and post flop.
Generally when they are 3 plus players in the pot i slow play him and hope for some action at the turn.

Originally Posted by fast_frog

Let me askyou this: are you calling KQ as well? Since you think he only has bluffs and it doesn't make sense for AK or small pairs to bluff, why not? He should only have worse and you should call, right?

No I would not call with KQ, since I think, he could easily be bluffing with better. More importantly though Hero had questions about the river, and we are arguing about it, but this river spot should never have happened.

The inflexion point in this hand is the third 9 on the turn. On the surface it looked like a great card for us, because now its less likely, we are behind to a 9. But it was actually a card, which turned our hand into more of a bluff catcher or showdown value type hand. We can no longer get value from JX, because our kicker no longer play, and draws are so far behind now, they are just going to fold. We also dont have much to protect against, since we can only be outdrawn by an A, a Q or the last 9.

So this is a perfect spot to check back and get the second street of value either by calling his river bet or by betting ourself if checked to. In this way we underrepresent our hand a little bit and keep his bluffing range alive, while at the same time not going broke against better hands, or getting bluffed out of the pot.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

The inflexion point in this hand is the third 9 on the turn. On the surface it looked like a great card for us, because now its less likely, we are behind to a 9. But it was actually a card, which turned our hand into more of a bluff catcher or showdown value type hand. We can no longer get value from JX, because our kicker no longer play, and draws are so far behind now, they are just going to fold. We also dont have much to protect against, since we can only be outdrawn by an A, a Q or the last 9.

So this is a perfect spot to check back and get the second street of value either by calling his river bet or by betting ourself if checked to. In this way we underrepresent our hand a little bit and keep his bluffing range alive, while at the same time not going broke against better hands, or getting bluffed out of the pot.

I agree with this portion of your point of view. I think this is the most +EV line. But after we bet 3/4 again on the turn and get called again it makes perfect sense to me why V donk led river with the nuts. If Hero were to check behind it would be a disaster. Since Hero sized so large and didn't 3 bet he should almost exclusively have Jx and V still has all the over pairs. It's conceivable that Jx could check behind river. It's also conceivable that Hero was bluffing and will give up. Lastly is Zeebow's Theorem, it's a super common mistake for people to not be able to fold a boat. His donk jam is only about a 2x overbet since there should be about $11 in the pot on the river and it can look bluffy as you've said yourself you want to call it. He went for max value and got the call. If he gets this call even 1 in 4 times it's printing way more money than risking a check back. Also the x/r river looks even stronger and may generate even more folds depending on Hero's river sizing if he does bet. Overbets have been working well in the mircos for me. I think this hand illustrates why. I'm a calling station and I would fold this river as played unless V was a maniac. I think we would be calling and praying for a chop most of the time. All the rest of the time he has QQ+ or 9x unless again he's a maniac, everyone else should have zero bluffs here.

In Villains spot I would bet small on the flop, larger on the turn and very large on the river. Probably even an overbet, because as you say, a lot of people can just not fold a full house. I dont see any point in slow-playing trips and later quads. If I did check-call flop, I would have check-jammed turn. Its not like, a J would have folded to that line, or that Villain achieved anything at all by letting the last card roll off.

Preflop:

Call is a good game in position

Flop:

Against the opponent's range, we have 65% equity, we play a bet. Size in 3/4 is good

Turn:

Against the strongest range, we only have 35% equity, but the opponent will continue with all pairs as well, so we have 65% equity for the bet. Playing a bet-fold

River
With a pot-sized bet, we can call if we have more than 33% equity to win. Let's assume that the opponent will only play strong pairs, hands 9x, Jx, then we have only 12% equity. Playing fold

Originally Posted by ksandr010

Turn:

Against the strongest range, we only have 35% equity, but the opponent will continue with all pairs as well, so we have 65% equity for the bet. Playing a bet-fold

Only if he is huge fish. In his spot I would strongly consider folding TT to a large turn barrel. TT is basically just a pocket pair below top pair. It makes no difference, if the board is J999 or J742.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

In Villains spot I would bet small on the flop, larger on the turn and very large on the river. Probably even an overbet, because as you say, a lot of people can just not fold a full house. I dont see any point in slow-playing trips and later quads. If I did check-call flop, I would have check-jammed turn. Its not like, a J would have folded to that line, or that Villain achieved anything at all by letting the last card roll off.

This is true but once V checks flop his line is fairly straight forward and Hero used larger sizing than V would have so it actually worked out better. Not much difference in x/r turn or donk lead river. One upside to donk jaming river is that it gives another chance for Hero to improve but OOP x/r turn is close to the same line. Benefit of x/r turn is that no overcard can scare V into thinking a bigger boat is now easier to have. The point I was trying to make was that Vs line is strong and calling with a bluff catcher when V shouldn't have many bluffs hoping for a chop seems pretty bad.

Originally Posted by zbalogh

6 max .10 .25 BB

MP Raise .75 - Starting Stack $25 (Villain)

Button Ks Jd call - Starting Stack $25 (Hero)

Action folds through

Flop 9hjh9s

Villain checks Hero bet 3/4th pot Villain calls

Turn 9d

Villain checks hero bet 3/4th pot Villain calls

River 3c

Villain goes all in for near pot size bet.

Hero should.......?
Obviously quads in back of mind but possible slowed played QQ? What should hero do?

Hello there zbalogh, thank you very much for sharing with the CardsChat community.
Lemme kindly try to help you:

The Preflop

First of all, I don't love calling IP vs MP dominated combos, such as AJ, AT, A9, etc KQ, KJ, KT, etc, QJ, QT, Q9, etc, you name it all the combos.
Unless I know the players in the blinds are very weak or can be exploited postflop, I am simply folding my KJ combos or 3-betting these very combos.
If you see that EP opponent is getting out of line (in the long run) and raising more than it should from EP, than you might start calling here to play a flop, but even so it is very risky.
When we hit Top Pair we never know if we are ahead and we might ending up losing quite a few value.

the postflop

The Flop

Villain checks oop and Hero c-bets 3/4 pots expecting to be paid by which group of WORST/LOSING/DOMINATED hands? Here there is a great chance of EP only pay us with AJ or 9x.
You may assume that EP will contain on its range some TT, QQ, KK and AA but those are only 48 combos of the total hands that your range might extract value from, and when EP calls you with AJ, QQ, KK and AA you are always dominated.

The Turn

It doesn't change the picture at all and again, which worst hands we expect to be paying us on such a dry turn? 88? 77? 22 maybe? AK is paying 3/4 pot here again to see if it hits the Ax or Kx OTR?
I don't like to bet for value on spots where I simply have no bluffs to balance my range, and this turn is one of the situations where I am only betting 3/4 pot when I hit the Jx, the 9x, or I have QQ+. Even AJ I don't know why would I bother betting so high and give an easy fold for the greatest part of UTG range.

The River

Since you already invested too much going 3/4 flop and 3/4 turn, and Villain noticed that you had a strong hand, because I believe you have no bluffs here, or enough bluffs, and then EP donks river by jamming, giving you an excellent price to call with your Full-House.
The problem here is that when EP donks jam this river, your Full-House is never winning or in the best case scenario it would be even:
EP players is not jamming this river with 22, 44, 55, 66, 77, 88, 99 impossible, TT.
So it rests JJ, which I believe we are also even, AJ, QQ, KK and AA, and none of those hands we are beating.
Yeah, the problem here is that we cannot see many 9x on EP's range, but it doesn't matter at all, since EP will never have enough bluffs on this river, what it decided to go wild here after Hero/IP demonstrated a lot of strength flop/turn and decided to bluff its AK, AQ or missed straight draw?
Are you sure that players at the micros/mid stakes are so creative to be putting up a bluff like this OTR? If you think so, then call and see it.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d

The point I was trying to make was that Vs line is strong and calling with a bluff catcher when V shouldn't have many bluffs hoping for a chop seems pretty bad.

That is true, but we should generally not put ourselfes into spots, where we are betting for value but then fold to a single regular sized bet from Villian. Doing that either mean, our value bet was to light, or that we are to easy to push around. Of course we can go into a long discussion about player pool tendencies here, but I have seen fish float twice out of position with absolutely nothing and then put in a big donk bet on a blank river to take it down. So this does happen, and therefore I dont want to be overfolding to such a line.

Now truth be told hero probably has JX so often here, that it is only a partial call. But if Hero always fold JX, he only gives action with quads, which he almost never have. And then bluffing becomes extremely profitable for Villain. I dont want to open up that bluffing opportunity, so after making the mistake of betting the turn, we at least have to flip a coin for weather or not we call.

Id like to know more about the player, but third nine he probably doesnt have the case. Possibly AQ AK AJ? pok 10 Smells like a bluff so I would call.

S

Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d

One upside to donk jaming river is that it gives another chance for Hero to improve but OOP x/r turn is close to the same line.

Donking the river would make sense, if the river card changed the texture, which in this case would mean an overcard. In that situation Hero might check back a J, and donking would be the best way for Villain to get paid. However on a blank like this donking makes no sense. If Hero is bluffing, the only way to get value is to allow him to bluff again, and if Hero has a J, he is going to bet himself. This is a general concept by the way. We should never be donk betting turn or river, unless the last card changed the texture. And therefore when someone does it, it is a clear sign of a bad player.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

We should never be donk betting turn or river, unless the last card changed the texture. And therefore when someone does it, it is a clear sign of a bad player.

Guess I missed class on that one. Somebody should tell the solvers too, they have it wrong! They base it on math and who has the stronger range and ignore this golden rule