Top 2 with multi-way action on flop

zachvac

zachvac

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pokerstars GAME #16544356241: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/04/06 - 22:46:35 (ET)
Table 'Kenos' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: bhurak147 ($24.40 in chips)
Seat 4: mohito2 ($28.75 in chips)
Seat 5: manoleterio ($14 in chips)
Seat 6: chilaxxx ($12.90 in chips)
Seat 7: dodoledieux ($26.75 in chips)
Seat 8: zachvac ($24.90 in chips)
Seat 9: Feuchte15 ($32.40 in chips)
dodoledieux: posts small blind $0.10
zachvac: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to zachvac [Ks 7d]
Feuchte15: folds
bhurak147: folds
mohito2: calls $0.25
manoleterio: folds
chilaxxx: folds
dodoledieux: calls $0.15
zachvac: checks
*** FLOP *** [8c Kh 7s]
dodoledieux: bets $0.25
zachvac: raises $0.25 to $0.50
mohito2: calls $0.50
dodoledieux: raises $0.25 to $0.75
zachvac: raises $2.25 to $3
mohito2: calls $2.50
dodoledieux: raises $2.25 to $5.25
zachvac: ???

The flop minraise is obviously to build the pot and then with the re-min-raise I figure at least one of them's got a legit hand. But then I get a caller and a re-raise??? Can I possibly get away from this?
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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mohito looks like he's stuck in the middle - maybe he's drawing to a straight? dodoledieux though is milking the pot with a "winner", you'd hope that that's AK or AA, but it should really be KK, 88, 77 or K8.

The gambler in me would close my eyes take a punt of tripling up, but your hand is at the very bottom of the "confident winner" spectrum, so you've got to be behind surely? It's a more disciplined player than me that folds though :(. This is one of those hands that if you call he'll flip over the obvious KK and if you fold he'll show some stupid sh*t like K 2.
 
Jagsti

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Yep I agree with Rob here, there's an awful lot of action here, our 2 pair is looking slightly vulnerable at this stage. I's a limped pot pf, so villains could easily be limping with 77, 88, K8, I think we can discount KK at this stage. Pursuing this hand from here would take some stealthy reads and history with opponents, looking at the action on this i think I can find a fold though. But I have a real problem folding 2pr hands :D.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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Yep I agree with Rob here, there's an awful lot of action here, our 2 pair is looking slightly vulnerable at this stage. I's a limped pot pf, so villains could easily be limping with 77, 88, K8, I think we can discount KK at this stage. Pursuing this hand from here would take some stealthy reads and history with opponents, looking at the action on this i think I can find a fold though. But I have a real problem folding 2pr hands :D.

you fold this??? I'm getting 5:1 and if the guy behind calls I'm getting 6:1. Although I did make a mistake with the title and didn't flop top 2 pair, I did flop top and bottom pair. No way I'm even considering folding here on the turn.
 
Jagsti

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Pot odds are good I agree, but if were behind a set or top 2, then it's gonna cost us a lot more down the line. We're getting 6:1 to possibly have to draw out, at this stage we may have 4 outs. For me to proceed, without any stats/history with villains I think I can find a fold in a limped pf pot.
 
Jillychemung

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I hate the minraise here. You get no info from it at all. I'd pot it here. You really want to get this hand to HU.
 
zachvac

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I hate the minraise here. You get no info from it at all. I'd pot it here. You really want to get this hand to HU.

Easy to say that now, but in a limped pot preflop with 2 pair I'm looking for value. I disagree it gets no info as well, as we force the initial min-raiser to act again, and we have given no information of our hand away.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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Pot odds are good I agree, but if were behind a set or top 2, then it's gonna cost us a lot more down the line. We're getting 6:1 to possibly have to draw out, at this stage we may have 4 outs. For me to proceed, without any stats/history with villains I think I can find a fold in a limped pf pot.

Some sets actually have us drawing to 2 outs, but I think you are overestimating the range of hands we are facing here. I think they're more likely than 6:1 to have a hand we beat. We don't want to stack this if we flat call and they push the turn, but a lot of the times we can see a cheap showdown in this situation, especially against the hands we see a lot that we beat like AK. Do you really think AK would fire another bullet on the turn with 2 callers?
 
zachvac

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Also forgot reads: dodoledieux is 90/10/3.75 and mohito2 is 40/11/0.8. This also leans me towards calling or raising since we see the extremely loose aggressive player betting at me and the extremely loose passive player calling behind. But these stats are also only over 20ish hands so not extremely significant.
 
Jillychemung

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Easy to say that now, but in a limped pot preflop with 2 pair I'm looking for value. I disagree it gets no info as well, as we force the initial min-raiser to act again, and we have given no information of our hand away.

How did their hand ranges change with their bet responses to your minraise? What hands did you hope to eliminate from their range with your bet?
 
robwhufc

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Some sets actually have us drawing to 2 outs, but I think you are overestimating the range of hands we are facing here.
I dont think so, he bet, you raised, were called and he could have called, but he raised. You then reraised him back again, middle guy called again, and instead of checking behind you he reraised giving you the chance to reraise him again.

You've shown strength twice, and it hasn't fazed him one bit. What would he do that with?
 
Richyl2008

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I dont think so, he bet, you raised, were called and he could have called, but he raised. You then reraised him back again, middle guy called again, and instead of checking behind you he reraised giving you the chance to reraise him again.

You've shown strength twice, and it hasn't fazed him one bit. What would he do that with?


This hand is really a tough spot, I think it's possible that they could be overplaying a top pair good kicker or a worse 2 pair (78). Mohito could easily have an oesd being as loose passive as he is. I can't really see myself folding this personally, their gonna have to show me a set or top 2
 
Jagsti

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Some sets actually have us drawing to 2 outs, but I think you are overestimating the range of hands we are facing here. I think they're more likely than 6:1 to have a hand we beat. We don't want to stack this if we flat call and they push the turn, but a lot of the times we can see a cheap showdown in this situation, especially against the hands we see a lot that we beat like AK. Do you really think AK would fire another bullet on the turn with 2 callers?

This is why unraised multi way pots are extremely tricky to play. Especially now were involved in a min-raise fest on the flop. I don't think a call is a horrible line after villains 5 bet :D, but seriously, looking it at from just the HH I think we get sucked into thowing more money in down the line. I'm not totally confident we have the best hand here, and we could also be crushed. This is something personal to me, but unless I have the nuts, or am drawing to the nuts, then I try not to get involved in unraised pots too much. Whenever I have I get stung big time.
 
zachvac

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ok well here's what I did, and I'm pretty convinced it was an absolutely horrid play and that I got extremely lucky. I shoved here. My logic was that either a call or reasonable raise gets action from hands that beat me and probably folds out top-pair type hands, but that shoving may look enough like a bluff or semi-bluff with a straight draw, and I knew at least the one guy was confident in his hand and would probably call me down with top pair type hands. I got 2 calls, the first with AK and the second with 96, which was actually a good call. My 2-pair held and I won a massive pot. I'm pretty sure I played this wrong, I just wanted to get a feel on how other people think it should be played. In retrospect I think I should have called this and folded to a huge river bet but call a reasonable one. It's just too likely that one of them has a set in this situation. But I lucked out and got the AK to call, and then of course the 96 had the odds with the OESD.
 
Richyl2008

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I dont think it was a bad play, especially with all the extra money in the pot already. If you could see what cards they were holding would you have played it any differently?
 
zachvac

zachvac

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I dont think it was a bad play, especially with all the extra money in the pot already. If you could see what cards they were holding would you have played it any differently?

The problem is I could not see their cards. I got lucky as they had the absolute bottom of their ranges of holding. This could just have easily been a set and 2-pair, although a hand like this was obviously what I was thinking/hoping but I still think that I don't want to be shoving here when I only beat the bottom part of the ranges.
 
Jagsti

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Very nice pot Zach always a bonus when getting a tptk villain stacking off in an unraised pf pot :D.
 
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