Are there any better lines I can take on this hand?

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Inscore77

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I know I doubled, but in this situation is this the best way to play the hand?


pokerstars Game #18202729365: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/06/17 - 16:43:54 (ET)
Table 'Vigdis' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: BenjEMS ($25 in chips)
Seat 2: Inscore77 ($27.95 in chips)
Seat 3: crovax4444 ($56.65 in chips)
Seat 4: sanofito ($25.90 in chips)
crovax4444: posts small blind $0.10
sanofito: posts big blind $0.25
tXipiTi: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Inscore77 [Ah Qs]
BenjEMS: folds
Inscore77: raises $0.50 to $0.75
nicuaug joins the table at seat #5
crovax4444: folds
sanofito: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [Js Kd Th]
sanofito: bets $1
Inscore77: calls $1
*** TURN *** [Js Kd Th] [3d]
sanofito: bets $2.50
Inscore77: calls $2.50
*** RIVER *** [Js Kd Th 3d] [9s]
BenjEMS leaves the table
sanofito: bets $8
Inscore77: raises $15.70 to $23.70 and is all-in
sanofito: calls $13.65 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($2.05) returned to Inscore77
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Inscore77: shows [Ah Qs] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
sanofito: mucks hand
Inscore77 collected $49.90 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $51.90 | Rake $2
Board [Js Kd Th 3d 9s]
Seat 1: BenjEMS folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Inscore77 (button) showed [Ah Qs] and won ($49.90) with a straight, Ten to Ace
Seat 3: crovax4444 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: sanofito (big blind) mucked [Jc Qd]
 
dsvw56

dsvw56

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Reads on Villain?

I like a flop raise here. First because you don't want an action killer/counterfeit card rolling off on the turn. Second, because if this guy is your standard 25NL player this flop crushes his flatting range from the blinds. He's going to have a ton of Pair+SD type hands or two pair the vast majority of the time, so you're gonna get action most of the time.
 
blankoblanco

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raise flop. it's an action board and he donked into you on a flop that hits your range pretty hard. as played i'd still raise turn even though it's sort of obvious you're strong, they suck at folding. but i like a flop raise quite a bit better

you're 100 BBs deep. start building a pot as soon as possible. whereas sometimes just slowplaying these hands in MTTs with 20-30 BB effective stacks can be fine, it's rarely right with 100 BBs because you diminish your chance to win a stack unless he just happens to make a 2nd best monster hand anyway
 
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Inscore77

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raise flop. it's an action board and he donked into you on a flop that hits your range pretty hard. as played i'd still raise turn even though it's sort of obvious you're strong, they suck at folding. but i like a flop raise quite a bit better

you're 100 BBs deep. start building a pot as soon as possible. whereas sometimes just slowplaying these hands in MTTs with 20-30 BB effective stacks can be fine, it's rarely right with 100 BBs because you diminish your chance to win a stack unless he just happens to make a 2nd best monster hand anyway
This is my biggest problem with the transistion from tourneys to cash
 
dj11

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Villain hit a pair on the flop, but not top pair, he also hit the draw, little does he know. Him filling his str8 was a god send.

I'm thinking if you bet out here you just might dissuade him from being so enthusiastic about his hand. With nothing to fear here on the flop, or the turn, and even then the flush draw is a bit weak, you just let this guy tug you to where he wants you to be when he hands over all his chips.
 
Jillychemung

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Opponent shows a willingness to bet, you have the nuts, nothing dangerous on the board, perfect time to slow play.
 
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izaill

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I would say u played it well...but it seems he just played it horribly...There is the term "outplayed" in this case i think u got "underplayed"...Depending on the player i prolly woulda checked the flop and get an aggresive or bad player to simply hang himself...I would be wary of him cathing a flush tho.
 
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Inscore77

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I would say u played it well...but it seems he just played it horribly...There is the term "outplayed" in this case i think u got "underplayed"...Depending on the player i prolly woulda checked the flop and get an aggresive or bad player to simply hang himself...I would be wary of him cathing a flush tho.
Catching flush on a rainbow board?
 
blankoblanco

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OKAY YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT. WHEN HOLDING THE NUTS ITS A GOOD IDEA TO KEEP THE POT AS SMALL AS POSSIBLE SUCH THAT YOU ONLY WIN A STACK ON THE RIVER WHEN THE OTHER GUY HAS THE SECOND EFFING NUTS
 
blankoblanco

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48 people giving the same bad, flawed advice tilts me
 
Jillychemung

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For those advocating a raise on the flop and/or turn, I'd love to hear what your bet sizes would be and what % you put on the opponent folding/calling/reraising.
 
dsvw56

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For those advocating a raise on the flop and/or turn, I'd love to hear what your bet sizes would be and what % you put on the opponent folding/calling/reraising.

Better question :

What hands in his range take this line (cold call from the blinds, then donk in to us on this flop) that DON'T give us action if we raise?
 
vanquish

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For those advocating a raise on the flop and/or turn, I'd love to hear what your bet sizes would be and what % you put on the opponent folding/calling/reraising.

raise to $5 on flop, it's not like opponent is donk/folding on this flop (or ever, people hate donk/folding)
 
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bw07507

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raise to $5 on flop, it's not like opponent is donk/folding on this flop (or ever, people hate donk/folding)

people donk/fold when I raise them quite frequently at 25NL 6max, but usually its a dry board and they donk for like 1/10 pot. Agreed that villain is not going to fold too often if we raise him on this board.
 
F Paulsson

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I agree with Combu, this is NOT a good time to slowplay. The only things we have going for us in terms of slowplaying is that we have the nuts and that the pot is small. But what is villain's range? And perhaps more importantly, what will he think WE have if we call? People like to claim that players at $25NL have no clue and we shouldn't be too quick to presume they think anything at all when we call, but seriously, people think. They do. Perhaps not always correctly, and perhaps to varying degrees, but they DO tend to watch the action.

So the guy in the CO raised preflop, and now you lead into him on a K-J-T flop, and he doesn't fold. You have second pair and a straight draw. What hand can you reasonably expect to have beaten unless you fill up?

Unless your opponent really sucks, you're either drawing to 8 dangerous outs or almost completely dead when he calls. Not every opponent will realize this, but many - most - of them will. And while people have learned the mantra "FLOP and COMBODRAW = SHOVE!" they're far from as likely to give that kind of action with only one card to come when they miss.

And that's assuming that he has exactly the hand that he has, which - apart from pure bluffs - is the weakest part of his range (pair + SD). If we allow him sets and two pairs and combo draws, his range comes out to (these numbers are good to learn by heart, btw):

Sets: 9
Two-pair: 18
OESD + pair: 18

... and then of course he could have AQ or Q9 as well, in which case all the money is going in regardless of what we do. But how do we maximize versus the interesting part of his range?

We raise, that's how. He's not folding any of those hands to a flop raise. He might fold some on the turn if a scarecard comes off, which is a real bummer for us.

We MIGHT miss some value if he's on a complete steal with a hand like 65s and just gives it a shot. But if we call him, he'd have to be extremely wild to keep his bluffs up. And if he's that wild, he might as well push right away if we raise the flop anyway. We can mostly discard how to best play against a total nutjob maniac because they're too rare and we'll end up getting their money one way or the other anyway.

Anyway, long post for a short conclusion: This is a bad hand and flop texture combination to slowplay.
 
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Jillychemung

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OK looks like everyone says that opponent will call a flop raise

sanofito: bets $1
Inscore77: raises $4 to $5
sanofito: calls $4
*** TURN *** [Js Kd Th] 3♦
sanofito: checks based on villians range I'd expect a check here 75% of the time
Inscore77: ??? now what

From my $25NL experience if we bet here on the blank turn we'll get a fold from the opponent 90% of the time.

And Inscore, my apology for hijacking your thread.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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OK looks like everyone says that opponent will call a flop raise

sanofito: bets $1
Inscore77: raises $4 to $5
sanofito: calls $4
*** TURN *** [Js Kd Th] 3♦
sanofito: checks based on villians range I'd expect a check here 75% of the time
Inscore77: ??? now what

From my $25NL experience if we bet here on the blank turn we'll get a fold from the opponent 90% of the time.
What range do you put him on, where you think he'll fold 90% of his hands to a turn bet? I just don't get it.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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... added to say that I did post a range above. We could possibly add AK, AJ and AT to that range, and maybe stipulate that he'd fold those hands AND all combo draws to a turn bet (making him effectively the tightest player in the world), and he would still not fold anywhere close to 90% of his hands. A bit more than half, roughly?
 
dj11

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What range do you put him on, where you think he'll fold 90% of his hands to a turn bet? I just don't get it.

I don't get most of the logic in this thread. OP flops the nuts to a rainbow. It is extremely likely it will remain the nuts throughout this hand. I don't have figures but I would guess 95% + it will not be beat. It might end split, but seldom will it get beat.

If not slow play prime, WTF would be slow play prime?

If and only if villain has flopped a set will any hand at this point have a reasonable chance of beating us, and filling the boat from a flopped set is only in the 25% range if he sees both turn and river. That still leaves you at a min of ~~75% to win.

Villain has shown aggression, and whether or not he is bluffing or has hit the set and is drawing dead to anything other than the board pairing, we have the nuts! Call, and let villain direct us to the bank! Raise the flop and you find out only if villain has paired (singular) if he calls, if he reraises you probably can assume 2 pair or the set, but we still have the nuts!

I have to assume FP, combuboom and others who are raising the flop are doing so to eliminate that 25% draw possibility, and on occasion I will put villains to the screw doing the same thing, but in this case I'd let villain think he was killing me.

It seems clear from the action in this hand that villain has ignored our hand. He does not even entertain the notion we flopped the nuts. These opportunities are rare, if we wake him up in the middle of the hand, he may be forced to re-evaluate, and make a much less profitable (for us) decision.

My vote is still for the slow play/trap.
 
KingCurtis

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also if they had AK, AJ, or A 10 they have about 2% to win and 13% to tie.........obv no PP here because usually a raise PF is made although not always but I wouldnt put him on that. Im all for the slow play, I am all about maximum money like pros and such talk about.....If a player is betting and you reraise he is most likey going to fold with QJ, so let an aggressive player hang themselves because like DJ said if they have 2 pair or a set the 25% range is there but who wouldnt bet with 3 to 1 odds on something I'll take my chance any day for 2 pair to lose all his money or hit, just unlucky on my part
 
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bw07507

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I have to assume FP, combuboom and others who are raising the flop are doing so to eliminate that 25% draw possibility

No, raising the flop lets the bets on further streets be larger allowing you to take villains whole stack later on. By just calling on the flop and turn we would have to overbet huge on the river to take villains stack and then only get his whole stack when he hits a monster as well.
 
dsvw56

dsvw56

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Slowplaying, believe it or not, has very little to do with your actual hand strength nor how likely it is you will be drawn out on. It all has to do with how likely it is that your opponents range is strong enough to continue or not. In this spot, the opponent has a very strong range, consisting mostly of 2pair and Pair+SD hands. Therefore, we raise to build a pot so that we can get all the money in the middle.

The only hands raising the flop *might* lose value from are pure bluffs, which make up a tiny portion of his range, and he'd have to be a retard to fire a 2nd barrel on that board after we call a flop bet.

Also, raising the flop here helps balance your range on these types of boards.
 
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