Test your Small Stakes No Limit Hold 'Em Part 1

[dbitel]

This was a series done in the other forum I post at by another member. I figure I'll post this one here (a tiny bit altered). If it gets a good response, I'll make a few of my own.

As You can only post one poll per thread here, this will be in many parts, so please vote in all parts and give your reasoning. Then I will start an answer thread where you can work our what score you got and argue with the score i give you

NOTE: THE ACTION ON LATER STREETS THAT HERO DOES IS NOT ALWAY THE BEST ACTION, SO YOU CANT CHEAT BY LOOKING AT LATER PARTS

NLHE .50/$1 Full Table, 10-handed. Hero's first hand at the table, no reads on anyone. Stacks of players involved:

SB ($77)
Hero ($190)
MP1 ($164)
MP2 ($11)
CO ($240)
Button ($38)

Here's how the hand starts:

Preflop: Hero is BB with T

T

. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
3 folds, MP1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, 1 fold, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, SB completes, Action is on Hero...

 

[t1riel]

I would raise to $7. There are too many players in the pot and raising it another $1 is not going to scare anybody away. Checking will keep the players in the pot so the oddds of winning are low. Rasing it to $7 will scare some players away but maybe a couple will call so will have some action with your hand. Raising it to $12 will probably scare everyone away and you will only have a small pot. You have the best position right now. Take advantage of it!

 

[JimboJim]

At this point I would probably play this passivley. A $7 bet wouldn't be effective enough for that large of a bet and if you bet $12 you either have 1 or 2 callers and chances are you are racing at best. Check here and hope for low cards on the flop.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

OOP with 5 limpers I check this and play almost exclusively for set value.

 

[x-Longshot-x]

With this many callers your hand just got as good 55. A bet here ensures racing at best and there is a chance that someone limping with AA KK or QQ will reraise you and put you to a tough decision. Checking here also confuses your opponents on what you could have

 

[ChuckTs]

I don't generally like limping (or checking) with tens, but you'll be OOP after the flop vs who knows how many callers and will have to slow down vs virtually any overcard. I think I check this and either play for set value or possibly overpair (but cautiously and depending on the board).

 

[blankoblanco]

Checking is exactly what I do here too. Not sure if it will be the "right" answer though, but I hate playing this hand in a big pot out of position. If I chose to raise, I'd raise to $7.

 

[zebranky]

you have to check this one - there's no way to push enough players out of this one without putting too much money on a middle pair. Assuming you raise more than 6xbb, the only callers/reraisers are going to be AK, AQs and high pairs, and so you're at best racing, and more likely behind if more than 1 calls.

see the flop, and re-evaluate.

 

[mrsnake3695]

If you just check here and let all those players in, you will have no idea where you stand after the flop. Almost any flop is going to hit someone, even if you get a set or if 10s are still top pair after the flop you still cannot be sure of where you are. I bet $7 here. You most likely have the best hand now and you want to eliminate as many drawing hands as possible. Hopefully you will only be left with one or 2 quality hands and you will have a better idea of where you are after the flop. You will Also have fold equity for a continuation bet after the flop since most flops miss most people.

If someone plays back at you preflop you should take into consideration their position. If the original limper reraise it could mean he has a big hand and you may need to fold. But if a late limper reraises there is more of a chance it is a bluff since big pairs would be making a huge mistake limping in with limpers in front of them.

 

[Shoestringx]

I voted on raise to $7 basically to get a couple of people out of the pot. Think of it this way, what hands are people limping with here? If the button and the cut off have any sort of hand at all you would think that they would raise knowing that they have position, so the range I would put them on would be very broad. The small blind was getting 9-1 on his $0.50 to call so he could have almost anything. I would mostly worry about MP1 and MP2 as they could be limping with A,Q A,J maybe J,J or suited A,rag and low pocket pairs. I almost always assume that in the absence of reads on people that they would raise Q,Q K,K and A,A every time so I would exclude those hands (not if I got a big re-raise though).
I can see the value of calling for set value, but I think raising gives a better chance at the pot.

 

[PokerPete]

I voted for the $7 also...ShoeString summed it up as to my way of thinking

 

[Xife]

Probably not the right decision but I check here and if I hit the set then I dance.

 

[Vegas Cat]

Raise $7 to remove pot odds.

A $2 raise is not enough to get the callers out of the pot and with 10s, you don't want everyone staying in, someone probably has face cards and others with suited connectors. They'll stay in if enough people call the $2.

With you being in LP, it gives you the advantage so you should raise more to get as much people out of the hand preflop...$7 is a good pot bet.

 

[aloevera]

Or if your crazy enough and had too much beer and don't really give a shit then go all in and confuse the f out of everyone.

 

[Debi]

I check because on a bet I think I would get at least 1 or 2 callers with this many already in the pot - then I am stuck with a middle pair that will likely not be high after the flop.

 

[alexross]

i am raising to get rid of players with rags - with the hope of a low flop after they have all folded (chances are I am ahead with the TT then).. then no matter what flop is, I am putting in a continuation bet to see where I am..

 

[F Paulsson]

Examining reasons to raise at all:

1. Getting hands to make incorrect calls
2. Getting hands to make incorrect folds
3. Building a pot with a potential monster
4. Semi-bluffing

There are more reasons, but these are the ones I think are the most important for this hand. Notice how "driving people out" is not a reason to raise. So let's examine these four reasons and see how they stack up - pun intended.

1. Raising to get incorrect calls.
Perhaps the best reason in general to raise, it doesn't so much apply here. Most hands that are liable to call at all probably have at least three outs on us, and often six, not counting strong draws such as flushes or straights. While we may be putting in money with the best equity, the gain is likely to be very small.

2. Raising to get incorrect folds.
A better hand than ours will not fold when we raise, ever. In fact, by re-opening the betting we're exposing what could have been a cheap flop where we hit a set to the risk of being re-raised and forced to fold. This reason is not in play.

3. Raising to build a pot with a potential monster
This is a sneaky reason to raise. By minraising, everyone will call (virtually for certain) and this will in effect mean that we've chosen to raise the stakes for this particular hand. We're no longer playing $.50/$1 with big stacks, we're playing $1/$2 with short(er) stacks. Why would we want to do that? Because although we won't hit a big hand often on the flop (one time in eight), making the pot big now will entice more calls on the flop once we get where we want to be, and our chance of taking someone's entire stack when we hit our set just got twice as easy. Don't make this play always, and don't usually make it out of position, but don't ignore it. It's not horrible.

The other two raises are two big to serve this purpose as some people may fold, which is not the idea behind this reason.

4. Semi-bluffing
By raising now, at a field where no one has shown much strength, we may be able to either pick up the pot right now, or we may be able to pick it up with a continuation bet on the flop. If you're calling a $12 bet before the flop with J-9s and the flop comes A-J-3, you're not going to be thinking that you have the best hand.

When we're semibluffing, we're hoping that people will fold either instantly or later on. A minraise doesn't entice folding. Bigger raises are required.

If we raise, how much should it be?
If we raise to build a pot, it should be the minimum. If we raise as a semi-bluff, it has to be one of the larger raises; either the pot ($7) or a complete overbet. The problem with making the very large raise is that we're risking an unnecessary amount. The hands we'd love to fold that would actually give way to a raise (KJ, QJ) are about as likely to fold to a $7 raise as a $12 one. And the hands that we'd like to fold but can't realistically expect to (AK, JJ) won't fold anyway. So why put in more money when we achieve the same benefit but with less?

So raising $12 is out no matter what reason I have to raise. But I have to choose one of them, and I'm going to pick check.

I don't want to come out semi-bluffing out of position against a field of unknowns. I don't want to be trying fancy plays like building a pot when I don't know who I'm dealing with. I want to see a cheap flop and figure these people out before I trip over my own feet trying to outplay them.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

I picked a choice here too fast. On further reflection I would choose raise the $2.
Checking here is a weak play; it's not going to do anything for the pot or any play you can do later.

Raising $7 will get rid of some players but you pretty much kiss your money goodbye because you know any callers will most likely have your 10s beat and what happens when someone raises you?.

Same thing with the $12 bet. Most will drop out unless they have a killer hand.

You are going to want to build up the pot somewhat here. $2 will get all to call. Not a high investment here. And if you hit your set you are golden.

 

[zebranky]

I picked a choice here too fast. On further reflection I would choose raise the $2.
Checking here is a weak play; it's not going to do anything for the pot or any play you can do later.
You are going to want to build up the pot somewhat here. $2 will get all to call. Not a high investment here. And if you hit your set you are golden.

I've gotta strongly disagree with pot-building here. If everyone calls, then something like 70% of the time an overcard comes on the flop (and with 6 people in, someone is going to have that pair), and 88% of the time you don't hit trips. So you're bulding a pot where you're only going to be ahead on the flop about 37% of the time. And thats assuming there's no set or two pair underneath you on a low board. The EV on a min-raise here has got to be negative if you assume everyone calls.

More importantly, though, do you want to open up the betting again and give everyone else a chance to raise you out? you're the last to act - control the pot by just checking, and see the flop, which has to be your goal PF. Your hand makes or breaks on the flop, so you want to delay making any further choices until you see the flop anyway. In a 6-way PF, all that min-raising will do is almost guarantee someone re-pops to clear the field or buy the pot.

 

[blankoblanco]

So you're bulding a pot where you're only going to be ahead on the flop about 37% of the time.

Way, way, way less than this. Don't forget about all possible 2 pairs/sets/trips/flushes/straights. So basically yeah, I agree with your point that pot-building here is really bad.

 

[stormswa]

yes

I've gotta strongly disagree with pot-building here. If everyone calls, then something like 70% of the time an overcard comes on the flop (and with 6 people in, someone is going to have that pair), and 88% of the time you don't hit trips. So you're bulding a pot where you're only going to be ahead on the flop about 37% of the time. And thats assuming there's no set or two pair underneath you on a low board. The EV on a min-raise here has got to be negative if you assume everyone calls.

More importantly, though, do you want to open up the betting again and give everyone else a chance to raise you out? you're the last to act - control the pot by just checking, and see the flop, which has to be your goal PF. Your hand makes or breaks on the flop, so you want to delay making any further choices until you see the flop anyway. In a 6-way PF, all that min-raising will do is almost guarantee someone re-pops to clear the field or buy the pot.

by mini raising here everyone has odds to call you, and like this user said there is going to be a overcard on the flop. I chose to call to play for set value, if dont hit your set be happy to fold to any intrest in pot.

 

[Lo-Dog]

I voted check, going to be hard to get anyone out of this pot and if you get called you don't know where you stand at all. Lets hope for a lucky 10 on the flop.

 

[F Paulsson]

I've gotta strongly disagree with pot-building here. If everyone calls, then something like 70% of the time an overcard comes on the flop (and with 6 people in, someone is going to have that pair), and 88% of the time you don't hit trips. So you're bulding a pot where you're only going to be ahead on the flop about 37% of the time. And thats assuming there's no set or two pair underneath you on a low board. The EV on a min-raise here has got to be negative if you assume everyone calls.

Building the pot occasionally at this point is not for preflop EV; it's for postflop EV.

 

[F Paulsson]

by mini raising here everyone has odds to call you, and like this user said there is going to be a overcard on the flop. I chose to call to play for set value, if dont hit your set be happy to fold to any intrest in pot.

Anyone who minraises this flop should do it hoping that everyone calls. Getting people to call is the whole point with minraising.

 

[stormswa]

why

Anyone who minraises this flop should do it hoping that everyone calls. Getting people to call is the whole point with minraising.

why in the world would you want to build a pot with TT in a 5 way pot, there is a good chance someone limped in with strong hand hoping someone would raise so they could push. You are playing for set value here, or you are raising to get the limpers out, mini raising is kinda silly.


and who said anything about the flop arnt we still preflop?

12% 12% 12% thats how often you are going to hit your ten which may not even be good. Here im checking and wishing for a ten and playing it hard if I hit and getting out of the way if I dont.