Random hand: 3/6, K8o in the BB

F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
So to add more stuff for discussion to this forum, I decided to try something. I opened PokerTracker, and sorted all my 3/6 hands for "went to showdown" in the filter section. Then I scrolled down a little bit to something that may be questionable, randomly clicked the list of hand-histories, and got this:

poker stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $3/$6
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) FPaulsson is BB with [Ks] [8c]
2 folds, Button raises, SB folds, FPaulsson calls.

Flop: [Kh] [Js] [7s] (4.33SB, 2 players)
FPaulsson checks, Button bets, FPaulsson calls.

Turn: [Qs] (3.17BB, 2 players)
FPaulsson checks, Button checks.

River: [Ts] (3.17BB, 2 players)
FPaulsson bets, Button calls.

As this was two months ago, I don't have a fresh memory of what my reads at the time were, but PT tells me this:

Villain is 18/20/2.4 over 211 hands. I don't have any notes on him, which is kinda strange given that I have notes on most players that I've played more than 100 hands on, but this is what I have.

I usually check-raise the flop in these situations, but for some reason I decided not to here. It might be because of some recent hand he and I had played in a similar situation and I was mixing it up. Or I wasn't paying attention. Or maybe I was feeling ultra-daring and wanted to check-raise the turn?

How thin is the preflop call against an aggressive player at a 5-handed table? I think it's pretty thin, but not horrible, myself. Did I botch the hand completely by not checkraising? Should I lead the turn with my K-high flush draw as a semi-bluff? Check-raise the river? Any other fun ideas?
 
D

Dingodaddy23

Guest
not very thin by any means of a call preflop IMO. I def. like a flop check-raise, but since you didnt do that it or bet the flop, it makes hte hand tougher to play. as played i probably check/call the river. you can also bet-fold it.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
not very thin by any means of a call preflop IMO. I def. like a flop check-raise, but since you didnt do that it or bet the flop, it makes hte hand tougher to play. as played i probably check/call the river. you can also bet-fold it.
Bet/folding would take a better man than me, although it is an interesting line because what other hand would possibly raise the river besides the As? Would he really check behind on the turn with the As, though?

But checking the river... I think any spade will call here, and not many of them will bet. Or? Would 6s bet? Would Ts? Not sure. If I'm checking this river, I better check-raise it, I think (and very safely fold to a 3-bet). That, on the other hand, would be pretty cool.

Hmm.
 
JimboJim

JimboJim

Legend
I wouldnt of called preflop but like you said its still not horrbile. I also kinda liked you bet on the river because you are holding a king so that reduces the chances of him having high pair. If he has mid-pair he might call but even if not you win the hand. The only case where he would bet is if he had the straight or nut flush. I would check-call on the river. If he bets small its an easy call for you even if you lose and if he bets big I would assume he has a high straight. If he checks behind you then he probably wouldnt of made the call anyway.
 
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Dingodaddy23

Guest
the more i think about it, the more it seems like he has a hand that will call a bet but wont make one. i think a river value bet is in order. did you beat a jack or lose to a random spade?
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Maybe the symbols are too small to see properly, but I have the K-high flush, guys. :p
 
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Dingodaddy23

Guest
ooooohhhh. didnt catch that. haha. then yes, your line is about the only way to go, i'm calling a raise also even tho if he raises its 99.999% of the time the A of spades. i dont like folding the 2nd nuts for 1 more bet.
 
JimboJim

JimboJim

Legend
ooooohhhh. didnt catch that. haha. then yes, your line is about the only way to go, i'm calling a raise also even tho if he raises its 99.999% of the time the A of spades. i dont like folding the 2nd nuts for 1 more bet.

He could raise with a high straight. He could either think you have a low flush and try to get yu to fold or he could think his straight is good. People dont play as smart as the books tell us they do. I dont know how many hands that I've been in where they didnt even notice the flush draw on the board.
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

I'm confused
You must have had some reads here or something. It's the only reason I can think of for playing the hand so weak. I would have been much more aggressive here from the flop on, if he has the ace spades and calls all the way to the river then more power to him. He could have raised from the button with almost anything. Made a continuation bet on the flop and quit the bluff when you called. he never showed any real strength at any time in this hand. He could have called the river with any pair not putting u on runner runner flush, however with no bets to chase him off he easily could have had the ace spades which obviously he didn't or he would have 3 bet the river. Seems to me you could have made some more money here. I don't really look at a bet on the turn as a semi-bluff, I think you have the best hand here. I would consider it a value bet with outs if raised.

Do you have any idea why you played this so weak, doesn't seem like you.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Can't think of any reason besides the ones I listed. The one that makes the most sense is that he and I had recently played a button/BB hand heads-up and I had flopped top-pair then too and this time I switched tactics.
 
P

PIGGEBANK

Rising Star
It looks good played as is. A flop check-raise or lead bet would give an agressive players flush draw a chance to make it 3 bets to build equity in the pot. Check/call there to see the turn would not be a bad move in my opinion.

NH
 
loopmeister

loopmeister

Rock Star
I know you can't remember the specifics, FP, but how would you play this normally? Particularly regarding betting out on the flop?

You've hit the flop. He has probably missed - he could have anything. By checking you run a real risk of giving him a free card and allowing him to catch up. There are some real straight draws out there.

For the same reason, I wouldn't go for a check/raise on the flop either.
A value bet seems the best route here - you're giving bad pot odds for straight draws, and if he calls or raises, it gives you significant info about his hand.

--- And I've just noticed that this was a limit game, which I know little about. Presumably it's a different scenario to NL.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
In limit, a steal (any openraise from late position) will virtually always continuation bet. In fact, more than half the time when someone does NOT continuation bet a flop, they've hit at least two pair and are trying to slowplay. Therefore, by checking the flop, I'm guaranteed to get at least one bet in with top pair.

True, there's a straight draw that might get there, but the pot is small. I'm forfeiting fairly little value in checking. Also, there's only one overcard to my pair, so if my top pair is still best, it will very likely still be best on the turn.

My standard play, against an unknown opponent, is to check-raise this flop and lead the turn. My best guess as to why I didn't in this hand is that we just recently played a hand in a very similar scenario where I checkraised with top pair and I decided to confuse him a little.
 
J

jsaw

Rock Star
Since you were in the big blind - depending on the size of the raise- your call should be based on pot odds. The other player raised with four to come - so you should give credit ( depending on your read) for some kind of hand. Post flop - with top pair and a back door flush, a bet to help define your position seems in order. If the other player re-raises then you will have a decision, but must make him pay for a straight or flush draw. If he has AA,KK, or AK you are in a world of hurt and wil, in most cases, lose -but it is better to find out early. In this case, you drew runne,runner, to the 2nd nut flush - there is only one card in the deck that beats you - I would bet - if he comes over the top then again it is decision time. If he is a really bad player, he will push all in; if he is a really good player he will make a value bet.
 
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