QQ vs very aggressive opponent..what turn line should I take after an ace hits?
jokish123
Legend
Platinum Level
idk i kinda disagree with everyone on this one. If it was me i would bet the turn for the continuation bet. Don't show any signs of weakness. Since you said that he was aggressive,if you just stop betting cause of the Ace on the turn he might think that you didn't definitely didn't hit the A. So in turn he might make a big enough bet that could scare you away from this pot when in fact he has only a low pocket pair.
Tygran
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Actually... one part of the reason of checking behind on the turn is to further encourage him to bet or even shove a hand we *do* beat with the QQ.
What does betting accomplish? If he has the ace he isn't going *anywhere* and i'm more or less dead in the water. If he doesn't have the ace, we are most likely ahead and don't want to push him out. wa/wb in a nutshell.
Tygran
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I agreed with chuck, called his $10 river bet.
he had 7d 9d which was top pair/weak kicker on the flop.
I'm actually really surprised he didn't bet or shove the turn after he picked up a diamond draw but oh well.
The QQ held and was way ahead the whole time.
he had 7d 9d which was top pair/weak kicker on the flop.
I'm actually really surprised he didn't bet or shove the turn after he picked up a diamond draw but oh well.
The QQ held and was way ahead the whole time.
jokish123
Legend
Platinum Level
Tygran
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I agree actually.
Personally I think I like a value bet because I just don't see him checking an ace twice. and I have yet to see him slowplay anything, the one time he had the nuts he was vastly overbetting the pot with it.
What are you thoughts WV?
Jagsti
I'm sweet enough!
Silver Level
WV - you da man.
This is a really interesting point. I love value betting the river. This is a situation where I would VB if it's chk to me especially against this villain. It's kinda similar to when we're oop and we chk to bluff catch. We sometimes miss so much value on the river it's insane.
The down side to this is when we VB the river and the villain pushes. Sometimes I get the urge to call
uke:all over my laptop.BTW I chk turn here, call river bet.
Tygran
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
against many villains yes this is true. against this one... yeah i think he calls plenty with lots that we beat. does that change your opinion?
Richyl2008
Visionary
Silver Level
If villain is passive straightforward, I can see putting in some kind of value bet, but if he has a weaker hand than queens he's not too likely to call a larger bet, so I think you'd have to make a bet small enough for a jack or 9 to call, which may be half pot or less, so he can make a crying call. The fact that he's passive makes it unlikely for him to checkraise us off a better hand with a small value bet. Against someone more tricky aggressive, I'd probably check behind here, because he probably won't call a substantial value bet with a hand that we can beat, and he may be more willing to checkraise our smaller bets, that were trying to get value off of worse hands with. It gets us to showdown with little to no risk and protects our stack
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
WV - you da man.
This is a really interesting point. I love value betting the river. This is a situation where I would VB if it's chk to me especially against this villain. It's kinda similar to when we're oop and we chk to bluff catch. We sometimes miss so much value on the river it's insane.
The down side to this is when we VB the river and the villain pushes. Sometimes I get the urge to call
BTW I chk turn here, call river bet.
I think the issue with betting the river is the overly aggressive villain and the remaining stack sizes. If he CRAI (which he is capable of doing with anything) we have to call. I guess I could be talked into a VB on the river if his WTSD % was high enough that I thought he'd call with a worse hand often enough (say WTSD > 30%). Of course the villains AF strongly argues for a VB if he checks because if he did have the A he's almost always betting the river.
So to sum up, I'm still unsure.
Munchrs
Legend
Silver Level
lol, how can you be unsure, his calling range is ssoooo fricken wide and if he shoves were pot commited and have to call anyway but I think that hes shoving jacks aswell as aces and some other random hands. Basically his calling range is soo wide that the -ev (if any) that you incure when he shoves you value bet is outweighed by the +ev of when he calls you v-bet.
So say he shove 30% of the time, 10% are bluffs, 5% are worse hands ie KJ, and the rest 15% beat you actually I think this is still positive ev as you would be getting way better that 1.1:1 pot odds which is what you need to make calling marginaly profitable based o my assumptions of hand ranges.
Like wise with him calling he will I think roughly 35% which pretty much 30% we are going to beat as most Ace or better hands c/r.
The res the folds and we win anyway.
so I cant think of any play which is -ev except for checking.
Unless someone thinks those ranges are way way off?
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
No doubt about it. His bet on the river is exactly what we want.
F
feitr
Legend
Silver Level
In general i think it is best to check behind on the turn then call river and value bet river if he checks to you. But you crush villain's range so hard here, and the odds of him having an ace is so remote, that value betting turn isn't as bad as some ppl are indicating. The major reason i wouldn't do it is simply for pot control vs a loose cannon. I totally disagree with ppl saying that because there is an overcard it automatically becomes wa/wb. vs a player with a range this wide, the odds of him having an ace is no greater than him having a 3 etc. So the check behind is to exercise pot control to prevent a bluff shove or something and to encourage a river bluff. It isn't a wa/wb at all, because we can't really assign an A to his range here. The problem with value betting the turn is that you will fold out some hands that will bluff the river, and it makes the river decision nice and easy. Villain is probably showing up with nothing here alot.
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Richyl2008
Visionary
Silver Level
I guess betting the river is ok if he checks, in a tournament situation I would be checking behind here a high % of the time. I'm just not sure if this type of player would be check calling much at all after you check behind on the turn. I think most of the time he's checking he's just giving up and folding to a bet, sometimes getting fancy with a checkraise , and most of the time he's leading out with his entire range of bluffs, good hands, and bad. With op's reads value bet is correct I believe, not really sure how you would deal with this situation against unknowns, trying to milk thin value is something i suppose i need to work on
F
feitr
Legend
Silver Level
Given villain's range, value betting river here isn't very thin at all. As you said, however, it is unlikely somebody as LAG as this is going to check river with any hand they will call a river value bet. But since they'll never be checking river with a hand that is ahead (unless you are playing better players at higher stakes trying to balance their ranges) then you can't exactly lose by value betting the river and hoping villain makes a hero call.