QQ raise, reraise on a safe board

edge-t

edge-t

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Recently, I've been experiencing a downswing of sort, I emailed Ninelions my HH files and he did a session review for me. He looked over this hand and thought that I should post it on the forum for some opinions. So, here it is:

Villain is a 62/25/3.5 maniac, he's the SB.

full tilt poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $8.75
BB: $4.00
Hero (UTG): $11.50
UTG+1: $6.70
MP1: $3.05
MP2: $7.05
MP3: $2.80
CO: $11.15
BTN: $14.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q
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Q
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(9 Players)
Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.40, 3 folds, SB raises to $1.40, BB folds, Hero calls $1.00, MP2 calls $1.00

Flop: ($4.30) 5
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2
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2
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(3 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks

Turn: ($4.30) 4
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(3 Players)
SB bets $2.75, Hero ???
 
winneronline

winneronline

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If he was a maniac, he might have raised you with anything from ATo to AKs and pocket pair of course. I do not understand you checking the flop. Put a 3/4 bet to see where you are at. I think you are ahead. Anyway, the way you played it, I would put him ALL-IN on the turn. You re only afraid AA , KK. If he has 22 44 or 55 you re just unlucky.
 
Vintage82

Vintage82

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How often does the maniac go to showdown?

I'd want to re-raise preflop knowing he's aggressive with pretty much anything, so re-pop preflop.

It's a safe flop so bet again, and if raised, I'd call him down. His range is pretty big, and only few hands beat you - 55, A-rag (for a gutshot), KK & AA.

His range could also mean A10+ or 66+, checking the flop shows weakness so his bet on the turn is slightly iffy, but I'd raise all-in, as the pots at $7.05, and raising doesnt leave you with much left after.
 
J

joeeagles

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If he was a maniac, he might have raised you with anything from ATo to AKs and pocket pair of course. I do not understand you checking the flop.


I agree with this, I don't like the flop check. A feeler bet of 1/2 pot or slightly more would have been much better, considering the pot is 3-way.

I also agree with vintage you should have repopped PF. I think I know why you didn't, knowing villain is aggressive you want to get him to hang himself, which is not a bad strategy because you also have position on him. Problem is MP2 will also call because now he has good odds. With QQ you definitely want to be HU, so a repop is important here to isolate the aggressor. Had this folded to SB, I like the smooth call mostly because you're in position and with a good flop you can nail him.

As played this is now a difficult decision. His big bet + size of the pot + your stack will make you pot committed whatever reraise you attempt. With villain being a maniac his check on the flop looks fishy, no c-bet on that nice pot doesn't seem right. He might have been looking for a check/raise on the flop, and we have to worry about MP2 also.

The only raise that makes sense here is a shove and at this point I'd go for it, hoping I have the best hand. Villain played this pretty strangely on the flop for being an aggressive player. I'm afraid we're behind to aces or kings or a set but its too late to fold this. I'd recklessly shove here and cross my fingers.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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I've mentioned to edge that I think my own aggression level is still needing tweaking up. Still, I felt that this hand needed more aggression early on when less chips are required in order to try to better define the hands earlier on.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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This is actually a tougher spot than I first thought. If he's on AK, he has 9 outs going to the river, so you should shove this turn. If he's on AA / KK, you'll probably be calling his bet of just over $4 into a $10 pot on the river, although you might be able to make a good laydown there. Read dependent I'd say. Without a read I'd shove here. If the turn was a blank that didn't give an Ace a gusthot, I'd just call.

Oh and I'd probably bet the flop.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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I just noticed
Villain is a 62/25/3.5 maniac, he's the SB.

Pre-flop I think is fine versus a normal opponent. Versus a maniac, you'll probably get more value calling and letting him hand himself. If you're re-raising, I'd just make a small re-raise to like $3.20, then put him in on the flop.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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checking the flop shows weakness

I think this is the wrong way to think about it with the maniac. Maniacs are often the opposite of "normal" players. The fact that a maniac didn't make a standard aggressive c-bet on such an innocuous flop and instead checked, a "passive" play, should be worrisome to you. True poor playing maniacs at low limits tend to be aggressive when they don't have it and slow down when they do. I'd probably just call, proceed with caution. This is a better hand than yours more often than you might initially think, although you're still certainly strong enough to call.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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I think this is the wrong way to think about it with the maniac. Maniacs are often the opposite of "normal" players. The fact that a maniac didn't make a standard aggressive c-bet on such an innocuous flop and instead checked, a "passive" play, should be worrisome to you. True poor playing maniacs at low limits tend to be aggressive when they don't have it and slow down when they do.

Good point.

Or any aggressive player who normally c-bets and then doesn't this time, although with this flop I don't know why a normal aggressive player wouldn't c-bet.


I like your phase "True poor playing maniacs" :)
 
Effexor

Effexor

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The PF call was fine I think. I'd have bet hard on that flop though, put him all in.
 
edge-t

edge-t

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I think this is the wrong way to think about it with the maniac. Maniacs are often the opposite of "normal" players. The fact that a maniac didn't make a standard aggressive c-bet on such an innocuous flop and instead checked, a "passive" play, should be worrisome to you. True poor playing maniacs at low limits tend to be aggressive when they don't have it and slow down when they do. I'd probably just call, proceed with caution. This is a better hand than yours more often than you might initially think, although you're still certainly strong enough to call.

That's really enlightening... I remember some article saying the same thing about Maniacs. Somehow, I forgot all about that. Well, for what its worth, I shove the turn. If I decide to reraise 3x his bet, I'd be left with $3?? in my stack, so, I shove. Frankly, I think the 3-bet preflop should have told me something about the strength of his hand. I guess the hilton sisters look so pretty sometimes.

Yet, I should have bet the flop. If he comes over the top... I should fold right... or maybe not. That's another tough decision...
 
Vintage82

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I think this is the wrong way to think about it with the maniac. Maniacs are often the opposite of "normal" players. The fact that a maniac didn't make a standard aggressive c-bet on such an innocuous flop and instead checked, a "passive" play, should be worrisome to you. True poor playing maniacs at low limits tend to be aggressive when they don't have it and slow down when they do. I'd probably just call, proceed with caution. This is a better hand than yours more often than you might initially think, although you're still certainly strong enough to call.

Good point, was forgetting the whole weak=strong, strong=weak argument.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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I think this is the wrong way to think about it with the maniac. Maniacs are often the opposite of "normal" players. The fact that a maniac didn't make a standard aggressive c-bet on such an innocuous flop and instead checked, a "passive" play, should be worrisome to you. True poor playing maniacs at low limits tend to be aggressive when they don't have it and slow down when they do. I'd probably just call, proceed with caution. This is a better hand than yours more often than you might initially think, although you're still certainly strong enough to call.
So you'd be folding the river when he shoves for $4 into a $10 pot? With this read you should never fold, so you may as well get it in here when there's a better chance you're ahead, rather than give anyone with AK 10 outs to beat you.
 
J

joeeagles

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I did mention the fact that his flop check is fishy and very suspect, that's why I didn't like checking after him. You now don't know what he is doing and what he could have.

We need to remember here that he reraised PF. This is not unusual being that this player is aggressive, his range is reasonably wide and I liked the smooth call PF in an attempt to let him hang himself, as I already mentioned. But being that there was another player to act after, you should have repopped this PF, because you don't want 3-way action with QQ. This would have given you a better indication of the strength of his hand, based on his action after that. As played PF, checking the flop is a huge mistake and I believe its now beyond repair, because with the size of his bet you either shove or fold this, w/o any kind of true evidence to help you decide. If you raise this to $5.50 and get shoved back I don't think you can fold this anymore.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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If you raise this to $5.50 and get shoved back I don't think you can fold this anymore.
Of course we can't because it's only about $1 to call. Anyway we're ahead here pretty much always. If he happened to have AA or KK, that sucks, but if so this hand belongs in the bad beat forum and you were always going to get stacked here. So what, it happens - that's what the rebuy button is for.
 
alexanderwoo1

alexanderwoo1

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It would one of those hands where you go with your gut. For me it is a 50/50 chance of me folding here or calling it here.
 
edge-t

edge-t

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I realised that I forgot to post the results of the entire hand. Anyway, here's the rest of the hand. I know I made a mistake on the flop, by not betting out. I think it might have saved me a few chips... Too weak tight...

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

Villain (SB): $8.75
BB: $4.00
Hero (UTG): $11.50
UTG+1: $6.70
MP1: $3.05
Clueless (MP2): $7.05
MP3: $2.80
CO: $11.15
BTN: $14.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q
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Q
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(9 Players)
Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Clueless calls $0.40, 3 folds, Villain raises to $1.40, BB folds, Hero calls $1.00, Clueless calls $1.00

Flop: ($4.30) 5
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2
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2
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(3 Players)
Villain checks, Hero checks, Clueless checks

Turn: ($4.30) 4
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(3 Players)
Villain bets $2.75, Hero raises all-in to $10.10, Clueless folds, Villain calls all-in for $4.60
Uncalled bet of $2.75 returned to Hero

River: ($19) 9
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(2 Players - 2 All-In)

Pot Size: $19.00 ($1.90 Rake)

Villain had K
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K
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(two pair, Kings and Twos) and WON (+$8.35)

Hero had Q
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Q
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(two pair, Queens and Twos) and LOST (-$8.75)
 
Thomas Velasques

Thomas Velasques

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I also did not like it check in flop. 2x would make raise nao would be badly. it must have something around Aks… Aqs….even though pocket… what I find difficult.
 
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