Omaha hand

Alon Ipser

Alon Ipser

Cardschat Elite
I bought in for the minimum $2.00 because of my weak BR. Looked like a good table with about 70% seeing the flop and a $2 average pot. Already down because drZunum (better to be lucky than good) has been betting pot, pot, pot and it has cost me to see cards when I did have good hands but didn't hit.

PokerStars Game #5858364139: Omaha Hi/Lo Pot Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2006/08/09 - 19:59:23 (ET)
Table 'Massalia' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: 0x64 ($14.21 in chips)
Seat 2: Rayrod54 ($3.56 in chips)
Seat 3: Utopia2006 ($1.15 in chips)
Seat 4: drZunum ($24.02 in chips)
Seat 5: stevant ($1.77 in chips)
Seat 6: Alon Ipser ($1.56 in chips)
Seat 7: AWidowGyrl ($5.96 in chips)
Utopia2006: posts small blind $0.01
drZunum: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Alon Ipser [Kd Qs 9s Ac]
stevant: calls $0.02
Alon Ipser: calls $0.02
AWidowGyrl: folds
0x64: folds
Rayrod54: calls $0.02
Utopia2006: calls $0.01
drZunum: checks
*** FLOP *** [Td 4c Jh] Whoa, look at all the outs!
Utopia2006: checks
drZunum: checks
stevant: checks
Alon Ipser: bets $0.10
Rayrod54: folds
Utopia2006: calls $0.10
drZunum: calls $0.10
stevant: folds
*** TURN *** [Td 4c Jh] [8d]
Utopia2006: checks
drZunum: bets $0.40
Alon Ipser: raises $1.04 to $1.44 and is all-in Thoughts?
Utopia2006: folds
drZunum: calls $1.04
 
medeiros13

medeiros13

Rock Star
I don't see anything wrong with your all in. You have the nut straight draw right now and will have it even if a 9 K Q or A hit on the river. The villan could be chasing a diamond flush draw, 2 pair looking for a boat, or have medium trips. He could also have the same straight as you for a chop pot. Overall, good move getting your money in the pot with the best hand and and potential to improve your straight!

How'd the hand turn out???
 
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PreciousLor

Guest
Sorry to say, you played it wrong

You have opened yourself completely to be freerolled.

He can freeroll the flush if he has the same straight with absolute no risk, and only all potential gain.

Your hand is too weak to bet out. (lacking high draws and any lo draw)
 
medeiros13

medeiros13

Rock Star
PreciousLor said:
Sorry to say, you played it wrong

You have opened yourself completely to be freerolled.

He can freeroll the flush if he has the same straight with absolute no risk, and only all potential gain.

Your hand is too weak to bet out. (lacking high draws and any lo draw)

You must not play Omaha too often. Lets say he does have a flush draw..he's not getting proper pot odds to make that call. Additionally, lets say he has the same straight with the flush draw, what happens if a face card hits that's a non diamond. Then who's getting freerolled???

So to use your thought process, Alon risks getting "freerolled" by a diamond, the villan risks getting freerolled by a non diamond K Q A and possibly a 9.

EDIT: I will grant you that he can't scoop this pot with that hand..but it's a bad play to chase the low w/o any shot at the high too
 
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PreciousLor

Guest
I'll forgive your mild dig. :)

Q: Can he be freerolled? A: Yes
Example A9KQ where either A9 or AQ are diamonds. A pure freeroll.

Q: Can he be behind on the scoop draw A: yes
Example Ad 2d (or any low diamond), 9c, Qh, (or similar)
You are behind on 66% of draws to the scoop, and because you have no lo, your other draw odds arent great

Summary and conclusion :- He played it wrong (IMHumbleO)

;)
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
medeiros13 said:
You must not play Omaha too often. Lets say he does have a flush draw..he's not getting proper pot odds to make that call. Additionally, lets say he has the same straight with the flush draw, what happens if a face card hits that's a non diamond. Then who's getting freerolled???

So to use your thought process, Alon risks getting "freerolled" by a diamond, the villan risks getting freerolled by a non diamond K Q A and possibly a 9.
I have to agree with medeiros here.

Alon could be getting 'freerolled' in the sense that someones got the straight aswell with redraws to the flush, but he also has redraws (12 outs, 3 of them teinted) to the higher straight.


He can freeroll the flush if he has the same straight with absolute no risk, and only all potential gain.

Suppose OP does have the straight + flush redraw; he has plenty of risk - he has to avoid a K,A,Q and 9 to just split the pot and has to hit a diamond (only ~%18) to actually win the pot. After actually just doing the calculations with a hand calculator and setting (Qd9d2h3h) as OP's hand, Alon's stats are as follows:

win:%22.50
lose: %20.00
tie:%57.50

And that's assuming that OP has the made straight and redraws to the flush; something that you really can't put an opponent on. The point is that if you're not betting with this hand, you're insane, or don't know how to play omaha.

On a side note, stats for OP having straight and redraws to full house are:

win:%25.00
lose:%25.00
tie:%50.00

also a hand that you can't actually put OP on, so you'd have to push your hand anyways to scare off a draw.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
PreciousLor said:
I'll forgive your mild dig. :)

Q: Can he be freerolled? A: Yes
Example A9KQ where either A9 or AQ are diamonds. A pure freeroll.

Yes he can be freerolled, but how likely is that holding considering what Alon is holding? Not likely at all.
You have to push what Alon is holding.

Q: Can he be behind on the scoop draw A: yes
Example Ad 2d (or any low diamond), 9c, Qh, (or similar)
You are behind on 66% of draws to the scoop, and because you have no lo, your other draw odds arent great

True, but even with the low draw, he's still got the %s I mentioned in above post.

Summary and conclusion :- He played it wrong (IMHumbleO)

;)

The point is that you can't effectively put OP on any of those hands, especially considering that Alon is holding many of the cards that OP would need to have in his hand (pretty unlikely).

Then again, I'm no OH expert, but have played my share of hands. The way I see it, you're weak tight if you're not leading with Alon's hand.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
The simple fact of the matter here is that people will call with so many worse hands (naked low draws, naked flush draws, AAxx) at $2PLO8 it's worth pushing here.

This really isn't sound long-term strategy though, as when you move further up, it applies less and less. But the topic, I'm assuming, is asking for a judgment based on the hand.

Lor, yes, he could be getting freerolled. The chances of this, however, are small. AKQ9 with 2 diamonds makes up such a small portion of the ranges of hands people will call a push with here at $2 PLO8, it's not the huge concern you're making it out to be. There is such a thing as playing too tight in Omaha, too. ;)
 
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PreciousLor

Guest
Too tight, me? :) ;) yep

I accept the comments regards the stakes involved and the fact that the money at these levels is probably thrown around without any fear. He is probably ok, (although the fact he posted it, means he probably got unlucky of course), but I made my point because :- is it generally a good idea to bet out with an easily assailable single nut? A:no (a single virtually impenatrable nut, yes).

In short I dont want to give the poster of the thread the impression that moving with an easily assailable nut high is a good move. Next time when he isnt all in, and he gets reraised back at him the guy is going to get slaughtered (in the long run). Ok, before you say it as well, Of course what I am saying is more applicable on the flop than the turn.

For me, having the current nut high in Omaha means nothing really (unless backed up by good draws) even if it is a straight, and that is the essence of my point.

Either way, the poster of the thread will probably still call next time :)

Thanks for the friendly discussion :)

EDIT :- removed a redundant 'it'. Damn typos!
 
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Alon Ipser

Alon Ipser

Cardschat Elite
PreciousLor said:
Sorry to say, you played it wrong

You have opened yourself completely to be freerolled.

He can freeroll the flush if he has the same straight with absolute no risk, and only all potential gain.

Your hand is too weak to bet out. (lacking high draws and any lo draw)

When I posted this, my concern wasn't over being freerolled but the probabilities that he might catch a flush or fullhouse. I wanted to make him pay to chase and with this guy he may have even been chasing low. As far as being freerolled, the concept is taken.

PreciousLor said:
He is probably ok, (although the fact he posted it, means he probably got unlucky of course)

I try not to be result oriented when posting. If you check my other posts you'll see that.

*** RIVER *** [Td 4c Jh 8d] [Js]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
drZunum: shows [6d 7h Th 9c] (HI: a straight, Seven to Jack)
Alon Ipser: shows [Kd Qs 9s Ac] (HI: a straight, Eight to Queen)
Alon Ipser collected $3.13 from pot
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.28 | Rake $0.15
Board [Td 4c Jh 8d Js]
Seat 1: 0x64 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
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PreciousLor

Guest
CLOSING THOUGHTS

We have certainly establised (after seeing the outcome) that the standard of opposition at this table/level leaves alot to be desired :)

A question therefore :-
Against proper opposition what would be the net result of playing the hand like this on 1000 occasions? The answer is, you will lose money.

Your opponent likes the flop and bets out on the turn.

Give some hands where a good player might do this:-
Ad x Q 9 where x is low, and x,Q or 9 is d (66% for the scoop)
A 9 K Q with the diamond combinations (an eight for zilch winner)
Any Ace, Any low, Q 9, where diamonds not present (above 50% EV)
Q9 xx (even if the xx is something like 23, with no diamonds present it is still 49% EV)

NB A good player wont have even gone past the flop without very solid draws (ask yourself on a flop like that, what would a good player be drawing to). The fact that he is betting out the turn means those draws have probably improved.

NOW, here is the crucial point, for all of those 1000 times, you reraise him all in. A few he folds, not liking the power of his hand and the draws, a few times he had been caught on tilt without a clear head and calls without much power, but then in the majority of times you get called by one of the above hands, and you are going down down down in the longterm. He likes the flop and is betting out the turn. You look at your cards, there aint much happening in terms of improvement draws. If this is a good high level table and you raise this bet like you have done here, you are mincemeat in the longtime.

You are welcome not to trust or rate my opinion, but in the end of the day I've probably only played 20 million hands ;)

Enjoy yourself, it certainly seemed the right call for that table :). It has been an interesing discussion.
 
Alon Ipser

Alon Ipser

Cardschat Elite
PreciousLor said:
You are welcome not to trust or rate my opinion, but in the end of the day I've probably only played 20 million hands ;)

Enjoy yourself, it certainly seemed the right call for that table :). It has been an interesing discussion.

Your opinion was taken and appreciated.

Any thoughts on the villian cathing a set on the flop and drawing for a fullhouse?
 
medeiros13

medeiros13

Rock Star
I'm assuming you're speaking hypothetically Alon. If I were the OP and I caught a set on the flop, I'd certainly want to see the turn. With this being a pot limit game, I'd have no problem calling a pot sized bet. Now, if i missed on the turn, that's where it'd get interesting. If I only had a chance at a boat and the board was threatening with a straight (like your example) I fold. If I had a flush draw and a chance at a boat....I'd really have a hard time laying that down. I'd figure on 9 outs for the flush plus 7 others to pair the board and hit my boat.
 
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