Omaha/8 hand - what's your play?

[BKrywko1]

Playing a little PL O/8 at Empire this weekend, and was running pretty decent the entire evening. This hand is a pretty interesting one for debate amongst O/8 players:

***** Hand History for Game 4730321461
*****Omaha Hi/Lo Game Table (PL) - Fri Jul 14 22:59:25 EDT Table 98922 (No DP) (real money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Seat 1: HERO ( $42.42)
Seat 2: sallv711 ( $12.44)
Seat 3: just_true ( $24.45)
Seat 4: freewhiz ( $29.56)
Seat 5: DormieBear ( $21.73)
Seat 6: BiggT52 ( $8.69)
Seat 7: BrokeJesus ( $25)
Seat 9: will_kane ( $17.85)
Seat 10: dsanders320 ( $20.92)
dsanders320 posts small blind (0.10)
HERO posts big blind (0.25)
BrokeJesus posts big blind (0.25)** Dealing down cards
**Dealt to HERO [ 9h, 2h, 5d, 8c ] - Bleh, total rag hand here. If I get as much as min-raised these are in the muck
sallv711 calls (0.25)
just_true folds.
freewhiz calls (0.25)
DormieBear folds.
BiggT52 calls (0.25)
BrokeJesus checks.
will_kane calls (0.25)
dsanders320 calls (0.15)
HERO checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 7d, 5s, 6d ] - This flop is definitely one that's ripe for being an action flop, with high and low draws galore here. I have the best hand here, so I have to bet something to make the drawers pay.
dsanders320 checks.
HERO bets (1)
sallv711 calls (1)
freewhiz calls (1)
BiggT52 raises (6.70) to 6.70
BrokeJesus folds.
will_kane calls (6.70)
dsanders320 folds.
HERO ???

Definitely a big pot brewing at these stakes - so what do we do here? We can't fold the best high hand here, even if it is for 1/2 the pot. Do you just call here, and wait til the next card to see where you stand? Or do you just jam the pot and hope your straight holds up?

 

[t1riel]

Well, you're almost a lock for the low and you have the nut straight at this point. I think someone is chasing the flush or has a set. I would push all-in and pray you don't get sucked out.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Well, you're almost a lock for the low...

???

Oh, and this hand is the exact reason I don't play PLO8, because I have no idea what to do here. This may even be a fold, considering that you're only playing for half of the pot and could easily get outdrawn and scooped, though at PL25 I'd be tempted to just repot it and let the poker gods sort it out.

I'll do a bit of maths when I get home and hopefully things will become a little clearer.

Edit: Actually I doubt it's a fold on reflection. As I said, hopefully the maths will clear things up.

Edit II: On even further reflection, considering villains are relatively shortstacked it may well be a fold. With deeper stacks I like calling and potting a non-threatening turn (part of the maths is working out exactly how many turn cards we hate to see though), but I have no idea if this is actually smart. With villains being short, you can't really do this.

 

[BKrywko1]

There is no probability, short of everyone else who remains in this hand playing AAKQ or high-only type hands, of me even sniffing the low here.

 

[blankoblanco]

Well, you're almost a lock for the low and you have the nut straight at this point. I think someone is chasing the flush or has a set. I would push all-in and pray you don't get sucked out.

?? He's far from a lock at the low. In fact, given the raise and the call, it's pretty near certain that he's playing for the high half of the pot. He can't go all-in, so I'm assuming you advise to bet the pot. I think that's a terrible move here. The chance that he still has the nut high by the river is very very low, and he's got almost no outs. I'm assuming these other guys have good shots at the low, as well as a number of outs for the high, but it's possible they're just donks who have A2 with nothing else.

I definitely don't jam the pot here. I might even fold, depending on reads. If I had to pick one move, I guess I'd just call and see where I stood after the turn, even though I'm not exactly in love with the chances of avoiding their outs.

 

[RiverNoHelp]

Well, you're almost a lock for the low and you have the nut straight at this point. I think someone is chasing the flush or has a set. I would push all-in and pray you don't get sucked out.

I've only been playing Omaha HI Lo for a little while now but I can tell you one thing, he is in no way whatsoever a lock for the low.. After the flop he's at 2 5 6 7 for the low so anyone holding onto Ace 2 or Ace 3 even is ahead right now for the low..If an ace were the next card off the deck then he's got the low with ace 2 5 6 8 that it as least unless someone is holding onto 2 3 or 2 4 then they would play the ace 2 3 6 8 for the low.. Wow that sounds confusing, i'm confused just writing it..

As for flopping the straight it's a great hand..However with 2 diamonds on the board someone in that hand is certainly drawing to a flush which would actually make them the favorite in the hand I believe with two cards to come.. have to get FP to do the math on that one!..
The most important thing I've learned so far in Hi Lo is to only play hands that have a good chance for a scoop AND to play hands that will have a good chance to take the Low and backdoor into the high hand to scoop.. I would have folded this hand pre-flop but I understand that you realized it was junk and would have folded to a raise.. Only problem here is you flopped a straight and are now locked into the hand.. Best you can probably do is win half the pot and that's not a lock..I would have to fold here..

 

[DESSERTLADY]

Omaha is a drawing game. I really hate hands like this one especially in the BB. When you flop the Nuts especially with the current nut straight but with the two diamonds it's really a hard decision.

I don't think this hand is totally that cut and dry Tim.

You have to remember you already had one caller to the raiser. Neither player has you covered though, but you have two other players yet to act. The one player freewhiz if he calls your all in had $29.+ before the hand. That's a good chunk of change for one hand. How have these players been playing? Do you have any reads on anyone left in the hand?

The possiblity someone holding A2 for the Nut low even a 23, or 24 would have you beat(which is likely). Your five has been counterfeited.

They both may be on the draw or someone maybe holding a similiar hand as yours. There is a flush possiblity out there, also a straight flush possiblity, a higher straight possiblity even a slight chance of a full house there. With two more cards to come, this is a very hard situation.

I do agree with Tim to a certain extent though, if you are going to push here, you need to push all in. You may get the other 2 players that are left to act out of the hand. Then it may be just you and the other 2.

So what happened next?

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

First of all, nice post Tina. ^^

So what happened next?

I personally would ask that the OP refrain from posting results for a while until we get more replies, as I think this is a very interesting hand and want to refrain from getting results-oriented responses for a while. Just my opinion of course, do as you wish.

 

[blankoblanco]

I do agree with Tim to a certain extent though, if you are going to push here, you need to push all in. You may get the other 2 players that are left to act out of the hand. Then it may be just you and the other 2.

This is PL. Can't all-in. He's not scooping, period. He's got almost no outs to draw to, so if the board pairs, a diamond hits, or an 8 or 9 hits in the next 2 cards (I'm not going to calculate it, but I'm assuming the odds of one of those things happening is very, very high), he may be in trouble. In fact, forget "may", if the diamond hits we know he's screwed. If he knows he's playing for a mere chance at HALF the pot, I can't think raising is a good idea at all. I jam this pot with great scooping potential, not with that hand.

 

[DESSERTLADY]

This is PL. Can't all-in. He's not scooping, period. He's got almost no outs to draw to, so if the board pairs, a diamond hits, or an 8 or 9 hits in the next 2 cards (I'm not going to calculate it, but I'm assuming the odds of one of those things happening is very, very high), he may be in trouble. In fact, forget "may", if the diamond hits we know he's screwed. If he knows he's playing for a mere chance at HALF the pot, I can't think raising is a good idea at all. I jam this pot with great scooping potential, not with that hand.

combuboom,

you are correct there, my mistake on not seeing that it was PL. So to change my answer I still think IF he was going to push he needed to push the pot.(instead of all in since he can't)

O h/l can sometimes give me a headache with these kinds of hands. On one hand you have a "made" hand but being that Omaha is such a drawing game like I stated before, you just never know if the "Nuts" you hold will hold up. Folding preflop is a slim option he was in the BB. I guess he could have dumped the quarter that it cost him for the BB and waited for the next hand.

My original answer that I typed in that I deleted was a mixture of what made it up there in my original post and the one down below. I just didn't want to sound wishy washy in my answer.
There are just so many outcomes to this hand period plain and simple. No he isn't going to scoop this pot, which in O h/l many if not alot of pots aren't scoopable anyways. They usually are split pots. Those scoopable hands are few and far between. I have seen people push with what they thought was the nut low and with no high hand potential at all, only to be counterfeited on the turn or river to lose.

If he isn't going to push his made hand he needs to fold, since there are probably so many outs for the other players and few to none for our "Hero".

 

[JAMILE1]

First I agree that any raise PF would have folded these cards as we all know middle connectors can sometimes lead to disaster, I think the proper play here is to call and see where you stand after the turn, as there is a flush/straight flush draw on board, my guess is they caught their low, and trying to eliminate you from pot, and I think to jam the pot here would be a mistake as yet 2 cards to come and 2 to act, that being said if turn doesn't bring the Diamond, than I'd consider jammin the pot before the river, I'd say maybe the raiser and caller are on low hands with one of them on a flush draw as well, as we all know that some will go to hell with just the low, I'd say call and see after turn. but again what the hell do I know

 

[BKrywko1]

Good answers, everyone - many different viewpoints as how to play this. In retrospect, one could argue that I should have checked on the flop and called a pot-sized flop bet (costs me less money to see turn) - although I think sallv711 would have jammed this pot after my call, looking at how it turned out.

Anyways, I decided to jam here - knowing that these types of hands make you look like a genius when the hand holds up, and makes you look like a donkey when it doesn't...but I'm almost always willing to gamble with them.


HERO raises (29.50) to 30.50
sallv711 calls (11.19) sallv711 is all-In.
freewhiz folds.
BiggT52 calls (1.74) BiggT52 is all-In.
will_kane calls (10.90)will_kane is all-In.*
* Dealing Turn ** : [ 7h ]
** Dealing River ** : [ Kd ]
Creating Main Pot with $34.71 with BiggT52
Creating Side Pot 1 with $10.70 with sallv711
Creating Side Pot 2 with $10.27 with will_kane
** Summary **Main Pot: $34.71 | Side Pot 1: $10.70 | Side Pot 2: $10.27 | Side Pot 3: $12.90 | Rake: $2.90
Board: [ 7d 5s 6d 7h Kd ]
HERO balance $29.71, bet $30.75, collected $18.04, lost -$12.71 [ 9h 2h 5d 8c ] [ LO: 8,7,6,5,2 | HI: a straight, five to nine -- 9h,8c,7d,6d,5s ]
sallv711 balance $34.07, bet $12.44, collected $34.07, net +$21.63 [ 2s Ad Qs Qd ] [ LO: 7,6,5,2,A | HI: a flush, ace high -- Ad,Kd,Qd,7d,6d ]
just_true balance $24.45, didn't bet (folded)
freewhiz balance $28.31, lost $1.25 (folded)
DormieBear balance $21.73, didn't bet (folded)
BiggT52 balance $0, lost $8.69 [ 9s Tc 8s Jd ] [ a straight, five to nine -- 9s,8s,7d,6d,5s ]BrokeJesus balance $24.75, lost $0.25 (folded)
ping2331 balance $6, sits out
will_kane balance $16.47, bet $17.85, collected $16.47, lost -$1.38 [ 3s Js 2d Ah ] [ LO: 7,6,5,2,A | HI: a pair of sevens -- Ah,Kd,Js,7d,7h ]

You win some, you lose some - HEE HAW!!!!!!

 

[RiverNoHelp]

I am really starting to love Omaha HI LO..I played a sit and go the other night on poker stars and really got hooked on the game.. It definetely is a game for chasers (which I am not), but it is also a game for which you usually know where you stand right after the flop.. It's true also in Hold Em that the flop defines your hand but I believe it's even more so in Omaha.. You know right away if you have a decent shot at the low and if you make it you're freerolling for at least half the pot.. It's interesting how different HI LO is from Omaha Hi only.. For instance the other day I had Ace King Queen Ten in the hole..Great starting hand for Omaha Hi only however not so good for HI Lo.. Of course you should see a flop with it but with those cards you are only looking at half the pot at best.. Now if you have Ace Ace 2 2 double suited that's a monster in HI LO.. I love the strategy behind the game.. I hope it catches on in popularity..

 

[BKrywko1]

In limit it's much easier to chase your draws than it is to do so in most pot-limit games...for obvious reasons.

I'm surprised it's not more popular in the B&M casinos, but I guess that's because everyone's still into NL or Limit Hold Em - can't find a decent Stud or Stud/8 game around my area, either.