KK with preflop action

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TheReaper

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Stacks: - jlquon with $12.05 - sinbade with $3.80 - Richman316 with $13.05 - clancy1963 with $14.20 - Jack_Squatt with $9.85 - soufreus with $3.35 - Lomar10 with $8.35 - grahambell with $3.85 - mddog82 with $3.90

index.pl


index.pl

Site: full tilt poker
Dealt to Lomar10:
ks.gif
kd.gif

* - Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
* - sinbade calls [$0.10]
* - clancy1963 raises to $0.20
* - jack_squatt calls [$0.20]
* - soufreus raises to $1.05 Lomar10 raises to $3.30
* - sinbade raises to $3.80, and is all in
* - clancy1963 raises to $5.55
* - jack_squatt calls [$5.35]
* - soufreus calls [$2.30] [ all-in ]

Hero??

k. Only been at the table a few minutes so not much of a read yet on anyone except for Clancy1963, who i've played against previously. He's Loose/Aggressive. He's shown he play and raise with a wide range of hands. His min raise with a call didn't worry me much. I figured Sourfreus for mid pair and up, 88+. I thought it was more likely for him to have a mid pair than a big pair with that big of a raise, but I've seen people doing crazy things with big hands lately so I didn't want to rule it out. My raise was standard and I was hoping to get heads up with soufreus and race

Sinbade coming in surprised me, but his shove was pretty straightforward, just a call would've been stupid on his part. Putting him on a hand was harder, but figured another pair or a big A given the action in front of him.

Where I got concerned was when clancy reraised and got a caller already behind him. Jack_Squatt was taking his time on his calls so I figured him in the JJ range. He obviously felt he had a good hand but was vulnerable to the action around.

Normally, I have no problems shoving or calling a shove preflop with KK. I'll race them and if I lose, so be it. I win enough when people shove with stupid hands to offset the few times I lose to legit ones. On this one though, I'm wondering if I should lay this down with all the preflop action.
 
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viking999

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You barely even need to know what hand you have to go all-in here. You're getting 11:2 on your all-in (assuming clancy and squatt both call you, which is in the vicinity of 100% of the time). Nothing but a garbage hand (think 72o) is going to be less than the 15% to win that you need to make this call.

Now are you ahead? In my normal game (.5/1 or 1/2) I'd say no, but I'd begrudgingly go with it anyway because of the odds. In .05/.1 who knows?
 
pigpen02

pigpen02

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With all the people in, big aces are going to remove each others ace outs. QQ and below little problem unless they get trips on flop and you have equal odds for that. Other odds are in your favor. Call and see flop.
 
t1riel

t1riel

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Normally, I have no problems shoving or calling a shove preflop with KK. I'll race them and if I lose, so be it. I win enough when people shove with stupid hands to offset the few times I lose to legit ones.

Why should this hand be any different?
 
J

joeeagles

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Crapshoot hand. 5-way pot. I think the most important thing to look at is that 2 players are already all-in, and the other 2 have stacks bigger than yours. Given the amount of his PF raise, the best candidate to have aces is soufreus and he is a short stack. Another big raise was made by Clancy, but you say he's loose.

If you flat call you'll have $3 left behind. I would consider shoving this for the simple reason that there are too many cards that could come come on the flop that would stop any further action and will make you unable to create a bigger side pot. Shoving right now will get 2 calls. If one of the 2 big stacks has aces so be it, because you can't fold at this point for pot odds and you're clearly committed to this hand. The shove makes a $13.65 side pot which shows a profit for you if you win it.

Another reason to shove is that you don't want any A coming on the flop and messing you up. If that would happen you still can't fold because the 2 big stacks could have QQ, JJ, TT etc, which are all possible at this point. Furthermore, as already mentioned, they could fold to your shove. I don't see any purpose in seeing a flop, it would also be impossible for you to know if anyone hit a set, for sure one of them shoving into this pot on the flop could mean anything.

Lets look at the size of this pot if you flat call. It would be $23.80. If Clancy shoves the flop and Jack_squatt calls, it would be $3 for you to call in a $29.80 pot. Could you really fold? I don't think so. You're getting almost 10 to 1 which are almost correct odds to chase a K with 2 cards to come. That's how crazy this hand is.

Just shove at this point and hope you get at least the side pot.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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I haven't even read your section on reads because at $10NL this is a shove absolutely every time.
 
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TheReaper

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Crapshoot hand. 5-way pot. I think the most important thing to look at is that 2 players are already all-in, and the other 2 have stacks bigger than yours. Given the amount of his PF raise, the best candidate to have aces is soufreus and he is a short stack. Another big raise was made by Clancy, but you say he's loose.

If you flat call you'll have $3 left behind. I would consider shoving this for the simple reason that there are too many cards that could come come on the flop that would stop any further action and will make you unable to create a bigger side pot. Shoving right now will get 2 calls. If one of the 2 big stacks has aces so be it, because you can't fold at this point for pot odds and you're clearly committed to this hand. The shove makes a $13.65 side pot which shows a profit for you if you win it.

Another reason to shove is that you don't want any A coming on the flop and messing you up. If that would happen you still can't fold because the 2 big stacks could have QQ, JJ, TT etc, which are all possible at this point. Furthermore, as already mentioned, they could fold to your shove. I don't see any purpose in seeing a flop, it would also be impossible for you to know if anyone hit a set, for sure one of them shoving into this pot on the flop could mean anything.

Lets look at the size of this pot if you flat call. It would be $23.80. If Clancy shoves the flop and Jack_squatt calls, it would be $3 for you to call in a $29.80 pot. Could you really fold? I don't think so. You're getting almost 10 to 1 which are almost correct odds to chase a K with 2 cards to come. That's how crazy this hand is.

Just shove at this point and hope you get at least the side pot.

This is pretty much what was running through my mind at this point, calling wasn't so much an option but do I just shove and let the hand play out or lay it down.

Why should this hand be any different?

Because at this point I'm almost positive I'm behind and with this many callers I'm not sure I can improve to the best hand. I understand pot odds are telling me I need to be in this pot, but again, it's one of those things where i'm almost certain that i'm going to come out on the losing end of this.
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

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With 5 players in the pot even AA is less than 50% to win. It's hard to believe anyone has AA with all this action because I'm sure one or 2 players have big aces. At this level you could be facing anything and yes you could get beat by someone playing 8-6 suited or something but I still shove here and prepare to reload.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Are you likely to win? With this many in, probably not.

Do you have pot odds to call with your holding? Definitely.


Like said above, shove and prepare to reload. You might catch a side pot, but you can't fold this.
 
T

TheReaper

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Are you likely to win? With this many in, probably not.

Do you have pot odds to call with your holding? Definitely.

That statement just sums up the quandry that can be poker so well. Calling with pot odds, knowing your probably going to lose.
 
T

TheReaper

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*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lomar10 [Ks Kd]
sinbade calls $0.10
clancy1963 raises to $0.20
Jack Squatt calls $0.20
soufreus raises to $1.05
Lomar10 raises to $3.30
sinbade raises to $3.80, and is all in
clancy1963 raises to $5.55
Jack Squatt calls $5.35
soufreus calls $2.30, and is all in
Lomar10 raises to $8.35, and is all in
clancy1963 calls $2.80
Jack Squatt calls $2.80
*** FLOP *** [9c Qs Js]
clancy1963 bets $2.40
Jack Squatt calls $1.50, and is all in
clancy1963 shows [Ac Ad]
Jack Squatt shows [As 2s]
soufreus shows [Th Ts]
Lomar10 shows [Ks Kd]
sinbade shows [Ah 9h]

*** TURN *** [9c Qs Js] [Jc}

*** RIVER *** [9c Qs Js Jc] [9s}

Total pot $35.35 Main pot $16.90. Side pot 1 $1.80. Side pot 2 $13.65. Side pot 3 $3. | Rake $2

Board: [9c Qs Js Jc 9s]

Seat 2: sinbade showed [Ah 9h] and won ($16.85) with a full house, Nines full of Jacks
Seat 4: clancy1963 showed [Ac Ad] and lost with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 5: Jack Squatt showed [As 2s] and won ($16.50) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 6: soufreus showed [Th Ts] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Tens
Seat 7: Lomar10 (button) showed [Ks Kd] and lost with two pair, Kings and Jacks


Sorry for the format, couldn't get it to convert and get it into this thread. Anyways, thought you might like to see how it played out. I was thinking pretty much along the same lines as everyone else, just wanted to make sure I was on the right track. I was right that I went into it behind, however I didn't expect to lose it the way I did. I was really surprised when I saw what Jack Squatt and Sinbade came in with. As I continued playing I noticed they were loose, in fact in over 50 hands Jack was in almost 75% of the pots and sinbade was in almost 60%.

Anyways, thanks for the input everyone.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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That statement just sums up the quandry that can be poker so well. Calling with pot odds, knowing your probably going to lose.

Just keep in mind what the pot odds are telling you in this case; over the long term given the similar situation you might lose most individual instances, but the amount you win would cover the times that you lose.
 
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