Jam the pot?

Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Am I right to jam the pot here on 5th with flush and open-ended straight draws?

***** Hand History for Game 5413525736 *****
0.50/1 7 Card Stud Game Table (Limit) - Fri Nov 03 16:22:37 EST 2006
Table Table 125388 (real money)
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: ubbau2 ( $30.92)
Seat 2: lelle20 ( $10.75)
Seat 3: Dream_er1972 ( $83.28)
Seat 4: pepi55 ( $8.25)
Seat 5: str1p ( $18)
Seat 6: oorjim ( $17.25)
Seat 7: Powerdaddy ( $22.25)
Seat 8: Bombjack_x ( $21.75)
ubbau2 posts ante (0.25)
lelle20 is sitting out.
Dream_er1972 posts ante (0.25)
pepi55 posts ante (0.25)
str1p posts ante (0.25)
oorjim posts ante (0.25)
Powerdaddy posts ante (0.25)
Bombjack_x posts ante (0.25)
** Dealing **
Dealt to ubbau2 Q♠
Dealt to Dream_er1972 10♥
Dealt to pepi55 6♥
Dealt to str1p 7♠
Dealt to oorjim K♣
Dealt to Powerdaddy 8♥
Dealt to Bombjack_x 9♦ 4♦ 2♦
Bombjack_x bring-ins (0.25)
ubbau2 calls (0.25)
Dream_er1972 folds.
pepi55 folds.
str1p calls (0.25)
oorjim folds.
Powerdaddy calls (0.25)
** Dealing Fourth street **
Dealt to ubbau2 [ XX XX Q♠ 8♣ ]
Dealt to str1p [ XX XX 7♠ K♦ ]
Dealt to Powerdaddy [ XX XX 8♥ A♣ ]
Dealt to Bombjack_x [ 9♦ 4♦ 2♦ 5♦ ]
Powerdaddy bets (0.50)
Bombjack_x calls (0.50)
ubbau2 calls (0.50)
str1p calls (0.50)
** Dealing Fifth street **
Dealt to ubbau2 [ XX XX Q♠ 8♣ 8♦ ]
Dealt to str1p [ XX XX 7♠ K♦ 5♥ ]
Dealt to Powerdaddy [ XX XX 8♥ A♣ 4♠ ]
Dealt to Bombjack_x [ 9♦ 4♦ 2♦ 5♦ 3♥ ]
ubbau2 bets (1)
str1p calls (1)
Powerdaddy calls (1)
Bombjack_x raises (2) to 2
ubbau2 raises (2) to 3
str1p calls (2)
Powerdaddy folds.
Bombjack_x raises (2) to 4
ubbau2 calls (1)
str1p calls (1)
** Dealing Sixth street **
Dealt to ubbau2 [ XX XX Q♠ 8♣ 8♦ A♥ ]
Dealt to str1p [ XX XX 7♠ K♦ 5♥ 2♣ ]
Dealt to Bombjack_x [ 9♦ 4♦ 2♦ 5♦ 3♥ Q♣ ]
ubbau2 bets (1)
str1p calls (1)
Bombjack_x calls (1)
** Dealing River **
Dealt to Bombjack_x [ 9♦ 4♦ 2♦ 5♦ 3♥ Q♣ 10♠ ]
ubbau2 bets (1)
str1p folds.
Bombjack_x folds.
** Summary **
Main Pot: $20.75 | Rake: $1

ubbau2 balance $44.67, bet $7, collected $20.75, net +$13.75 [ XX XX Qs 8c 8d Ah XX ]
lelle20 balance $10.75, sits out
Dream_er1972 balance $83.03, lost $0.25 (folded) [ XX XX Th ]
pepi55 balance $8, lost $0.25 (folded) [ XX XX 6h ]
str1p balance $12, lost $6 (folded) [ XX XX 7s Kd 5h 2c XX ]
oorjim balance $17, lost $0.25 (folded) [ XX XX Kc ]
Powerdaddy balance $20.25, lost $2 (folded) [ XX XX 8h Ac 4s ]
Bombjack_x balance $15.75, lost $6 (folded) [ 9d 4d 2d 5d 3h Qc Ts ]
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
The rule I always go by is chase cheap if you can, then jam the pot when you hit it.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Third is standard.

Fourth is okay but if the table is loose and people will call there's a case for raising for value.

Jamming on fifth is fine as you have 3-4 players deeply involved in the pot, and your expected return for each bet you put in is more than one bet (as long as they all keep calling). Heads up you'd be better off check-calling, but multiway you can keep raising here as you're in a good spot unless the guy with 88 up has a freak boat (v unlikely as only one 8 is live and QQ would have raised on third).

Sixth and seventh are standard.

So basically, it all looks good.
 
JimboJim

JimboJim

Legend
If he's been showing that he's a smart player you could of just called his raise on 5th to represent the fact you were on a draw. He might of taken that as you actually hit. Most likley he had you put on a draw and was going to call. I highly doubt he had a boat. Just because of the way the cards went he had control of the hand the entire time. But that all depends on the read you had on him.

Edit: The only thing I disagree with was re-raising him on 5th. But that could go either way.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
The idea behind jamming the pot is that with 2 cards to come and an open-ended straight / flush draw, you're more than 50% to make a straight or flush... in Hold'em at least. In stud of course you've seen more of the cards, but there have only been 2 other diamonds seen here, so the odds are probably still about right.

In hold'em you can usually assume your straight or flush is going to win... however in Stud, it's a bit more complicated. If he has trip 8s or maybe 2 pair, I'd have to discount this a bit for the chance he will make a full house. I'd have thought in Stud the danger is probably greater, because if you make your hand in Hold'em, another of the same suit or one of your straight cards will not be pairing the board. So I'm asking the question because I'm not sure if I should play this situation the same as I would if I flopped a straight / flush draw in Hold'em.
 
JimboJim

JimboJim

Legend
Well in most cases no you dont play it nearly as cautiously as you would in hold 'em but in this case it is possible that you're going against a boat. The fact that he might know that you are working on a draw even makes this hand harder to play. If one of your up cards was a high card you would clearly control this hand but since you're betting on all low cards until 6th street so its easy to put you on your hand.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Does it matter that he knows I'm on a draw? Just because I am, doesn't mean I'm less any less likely to win, so there's no reason for him to raise.
 
O

OneMoreBust

Rock Star
With that board how could you not? I like the play, but yeah, you dont always make it, and yeah, once in a long while he will have quads or FH
 
P

PIGGEBANK

Rising Star
The only problem here is being careful with it 3 handed due to the fact that a few of your outs have been dealt to other players. Two diamonds, an Ace, and a Six have been spent. Granted, this may not seem like much, but considering the fact that even pairing the board isnt going to help you, you are hoping that one of the remaining 7 diamonds, 3 Aces, or 3 sixes is dealt to you instead of one of the other two players. Eleven outs is in no way a bad situation unless you make it one, though heads up would have presented you with a better situation to cap it here.


The first raise would seem to me a good equity builder, yet another bet pushes it over the edge a bit. Had your board been of the higher range, say AQJT7, you may have been in a better situation adding a lot of the pair possibilities as outs.


Hope this hasnt been too confusing
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
The only problem here is being careful with it 3 handed due to the fact that a few of your outs have been dealt to other players. Two diamonds, an Ace, and a Six have been spent. Granted, this may not seem like much, but considering the fact that even pairing the board isnt going to help you, you are hoping that one of the remaining 7 diamonds, 3 Aces, or 3 sixes is dealt to you instead of one of the other two players. Eleven outs is in no way a bad situation unless you make it one, though heads up would have presented you with a better situation to cap it here.


The first raise would seem to me a good equity builder, yet another bet pushes it over the edge a bit. Had your board been of the higher range, say AQJT7, you may have been in a better situation adding a lot of the pair possibilities as outs.


Hope this hasnt been too confusing
It's true that some of my outs are on other people's boards already, but the question is whether there are more on the board than average. Out of the 11 cards I've seen from other people's boards, only 2 have been diamonds. So I'm actually more likely to see another diamond in my next 2 cards than if I had a flush draw on the flop in hold'em.

Out of 35 unseen cards, 7 are diamonds and another 4 are non-diamond Aces or Sixes. Chances to hit on 6th or 7th are 1-(24/35 * 23/34) = 54%. (Same as odds to hit a flush/open ended straight draw on flop in Hold'em.)

Capping it with 3 people in is BETTER than heads-up because I only need to win 33% of the time rather than 50% of the time to make a raise +EV.
 
P

PIGGEBANK

Rising Star
Out of 35 unseen cards, 7 are diamonds and another 4 are non-diamond Aces or Sixes. Chances to hit on 6th or 7th are 1-(24/35 * 23/34) = 54%. (Same as odds to hit a flush/open ended straight draw on flop in Hold'em.)

Capping it with 3 people in is BETTER than heads-up because I only need to win 33% of the time rather than 50% of the time to make a raise +EV.


I can see your point clearly, this is another situation where it comes down to play style, where in hold em' I wouldnt feel comfortable getting all my money in on a draw, the same goes in stud or anyother game. I try to keep it fairly cheap, though still build equity, so if I do hit then I have a lot of equity in the pot to keep players in, yet if I don't hit then I will be able to get away cheaply.


The comment about heads up was more-so actual odds of being dealt one of the remaining out cards. With three players in the hand you are less likely to be dealt one of the cards you need than with only two players. With no pairs available as outs also scares me to cap here.
 
P

PIGGEBANK

Rising Star
How do you work that one out?


I'm definitely no mathmetician, but with two players in the pot, you have a 50% chance of being the one who receives one of your out cards if dealt. Opposed to 33% with three-handed, 25% four-handed, and so on.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
I'm definitely no mathmetician, but with two players in the pot, you have a 50% chance of being the one who receives one of your out cards if dealt. Opposed to 33% with three-handed, 25% four-handed, and so on.
I'm glad there are people who think like this playing poker! :eek: :D
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Think of it like this: the order of the cards in the deck doesn't matter (they're shuffled). So rather than dealing one to each person going round the table, you could deal out 2 cards to you, then 2 cards to the next person, then 2 to the next... however many people you deal to, it doesn't affect what cards you get, so it can't affect the probability that those cards are the ones that you need to make your hand.
 
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