It's okay to lay down the best hand... right?

Marklar

Marklar

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This is fixed limit. And yes what you are about to witness is real
I just sat down and observed about 5 hands so far and the open raiser in this hand has been capping it preflop everytime. This is my second hand dealt (first one played) and with AT suited I feel that I have the best hand against his range. If it were him and me heads up at the river I would have called but the board got really scary and the third player started betting. I folded but kind of ticked off since I missed out on this huge pot and whats really sad is that they both had King rag. So they end up splitting my money. I had to quit after this hand too horrible

Hand #1081011671000745: St.Moritz (Turbo, 6-max) 11671
Seat 1: CHRboy (76.50 in chips)
Seat 4: MrTeddyKGB (19.00 in chips)
Seat 5: gambler009 (32.71 in chips)
Seat 6: loshaggis (48.00 in chips)
Seat 9: catkiven1 (52.50 in chips)
MrTeddyKGB: posts small blind $0.50
gambler009: posts big blind $1
Dealt to MrTeddyKGB [ As Ts ]
loshaggis: folds
catkiven1: folds
CHRboy: raises to $2
MrTeddyKGB: raises to $3
gambler009: calls
CHRboy: raises to $4
MrTeddyKGB: calls
gambler009: calls
*** FLOP *** [ Qd 8s Td ]
MrTeddyKGB: bets $1
gambler009: calls
CHRboy: raises to $2
MrTeddyKGB: raises to $3
gambler009: calls
CHRboy: raises to $4
MrTeddyKGB: calls
gambler009: calls
*** TURN *** [ Ad ]
MrTeddyKGB: bets $2
gambler009: calls
CHRboy: raises to $4
MrTeddyKGB: calls
gambler009: calls
*** RIVER *** [ Kh ]
MrTeddyKGB: checks
gambler009: bets $2
CHRboy: raises to $4
MrTeddyKGB: folds
gambler009: raises to $6
CHRboy: raises to $8
gambler009: calls
*** SHOW DOWN ***
CHRboy: shows [ 2c Kc ] (Pair of Kings)
gambler009: shows [ Kd 4c ] (Pair of Kings)
gambler009 wins $25.50 with Pair of Kings
CHRboy wins $25.50 with Pair of Kings
 
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FlopDeezNutz

FlopDeezNutz

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OK, i'm kind of confused here.
You say that you the board got a little bit scary, but if you look at the betting patterns displayed in this hand, the board got scary for each of your opponents as well.
The pot was capped preflop.
The straight possibility was obvious as soon as the flop hit (a jack was necessary at that time). Neither opponent was willing to raise to cap the pot, which they certainly would have done if either were holding any pair with a jack kicker.
Once everyone backed off on the flop, the board should have gotten less scary on the turn when your ace hit to give you 2 pair.
The king hit the board, which again gave a very real straight possibility. But that possibility should have been eliminated when no-one was willing to even take a stab at representing the jack on the flop.
What range of hands did you put your opponents on? Unless you put them on hitting a set, I would have seen this one to the end.
 
Marklar

Marklar

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But the flop was capped and gambler009 check called throughout the entire hand until the king hit the river, then he led out. He's the only guy I'm really worried about the whole hand. The turn brought my Ace for two pair which made me feel a little better but also completed straight and flush draws (KJ or two diamonds) so if the check/caller, gambler0009, was on a draw he just hit. Now the river brings the King which I intend to call a bet here but instead of CHRboy leading out it's now gambler009. This is the first time he has bet through the whole hand, I know what CHR is going to do, raise. And since gambler has now taken the lead I know that he is going to reraise and the river will be capped. I have to really think someone, likely gambler009, has atleast the straight or has slow played the flush and hoping that I had the straight.

Like I said heads up its an easy call maybe a raise. But it's multiway and i know the betting will be capped again. Seeing what they had I wished I had called but I have to think im beat here right?

As for betting patterns all I saw was bet/raise/reraise.
 
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F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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As played, I fold this river every time. But I also 3-bet the turn.
 
FlopDeezNutz

FlopDeezNutz

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Alright, let's look at this again, because I think that you talked yourself out of the winning hand here by focusing on possible draws instead of range of hands.

-CHR has been capping everything, and took the lead preflop and on the flop. He is playing like a bully, because he knows that it will get people to question the value of their hands rather than focus on the ranges of hands.
-Gambler wasn't check/calling, as he never used his check option. He was merely calling bets until he raised on the river. He raised the river to play back at CHR so that he could possibly get CHR to flat call rather than cap the pot. Gambler had to make this play to try and take the pot because he was pot committed, and might have gotten CHR off the hand by playing back at him.
-You had multiple opportunities to take control of this hand, and were too passive because you knew that they were going to continue to cap the pot in the event that you raised.

Your mistake in this hand is that you knew CHR was a maniac, and you never played back at him because you were afraid that he would return the favor. The best possible outcome in this hand would have been to bet at CHR and make him defensive. Then Gambler is calling your bets, which he would have done on the river had you made any kind of play on the flop or the turn.
You can eliminate CHR from having either a straight or flush draw because he is simply playing like a maniac, and the maniac is more likely to allow you to control the betting when they are holding the nuts so that they can maximize the value of their hand. Remember, he plays like a maniac to steal bets, but plays smart when holding the nuts so that he can sucker you into taking control of the hand.
I also think that you could eliminate Gambler from being on a draw here due to the fact that he didn't try to take control of the hand until the river. Why do I say this? If he had a straight or a flush draw, he would have clearly raised on the flop to try and eliminate any potential confrontation that would take place on the turn or river if he did not make his hand. He would have at least made a value raise to try and steal the pot theb instead of adding big bets into the pot on the turn and river. I could see a smooth call with a straight or flush on the turn, to provoke CHR into leading out on the river, but given CHR's betting pattern, I think Gambler would have been observant enough to know that CHR was capping every stage of the hand when provided the opportunity, and he would have maximized profit on those hands by making a raise on the turn.

I know it is a lot to consider in a short period of time, but these are the things that I picked up on when I initially reviewed the hand history. Have confidence in your reading abilities, as you were right in this situation and talked your way out of making the right call based on the information that was being given to you by your opponents.
 
Marklar

Marklar

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Yes I got passive on the turn because it was somewhat of a scare card. It was real close to a three bet here but the question that came to mind was "why is gambler still in the hand?" I thought I had my answer on the river when he bet out. I would never have expected him to call both a capped preflop and capped flop with just a bare king.
 
FlopDeezNutz

FlopDeezNutz

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I would. Pot odds dictate a lot more decisions in limit games, and calling with garbage becomes more acceptable.
 
FlopDeezNutz

FlopDeezNutz

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No, he made some dumb ass calls early in the hand that gave him pot odds to call and/or raise later in the hand.
 
Marklar

Marklar

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because I think that you talked yourself out of the winning hand here by focusing on possible draws instead of range of hands
I guess thats what i get for playing too much omaha :p

Paulsson you say 3bet the turn but do you check or bet the river? That's where I got screwed. My check lead k4 to think he had the best hand. So he led out.
 
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blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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I don't think enough people are appreciating how unbelievable this hand was. River's a fold every time against anyone but the biggest of idiots (see: these guys) or some other extreme circumstances. Write down villains' names and look for them all the time!
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I guess thats what i get for playing too much omaha :p

Paulsson you say 3bet the turn but do you check or bet the river? That's where I got screwed. My check lead k4 to think he had the best hand. So he led out.
That depends largely on what happens after I 3-bet the turn. If they call, I bet the river and probably fold if they raise/reraise me. If one of them folds when I raise the turn, I bet/call the river.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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this is quite possibly the greatest hand i've ever seen.
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

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I'm not sure why we wouldn't want to keep the pot small here. You were playing a maniac that would bet/raise every chance no matter what he had, yet you lead into him twice with a weak holding, and another caller in the hand. Pre-flop you had A-10 which is not a great hand and easily dominated. Why repop here, when you know you are getting raised. After the flop you have middle pair, you certainly can't be sure of having the best hand right now, just check/call. It would be different if it was just you and maniac, but it isn't, someone else as shown interest in the hand. When the ace hits, now you probably have the best hand and should bet and call any raises but there is a flush and a straight possibility on the board so I prob wouldn't cap. I would not fold the river. I would check/call all bets. There are alot of hands that you beat that might think they are best like KQ,K-10, A-8, AX, Q-10, etc. Let me ask, would you also fold AK or AQ here? If not then why fold A-10?

As played, I wouldn't fold here. If you assume both players will raise and reraise you know it will cost you 8 more dollars for a total pot of $58. Those are pretty good odds to consider laying down a strong 2 pair here. You only have to be right one out of seven times for this to be the correct call. Considering villans maniac tendencies there is a good chance you have him beat. As for the other player, he knows villan is a maniac too and may also be playing with a less than strong hand figuring he was ahead of him. So I think the chances are better than 7-1 that you have the best hand.
 
Marklar

Marklar

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this is quite possibly the greatest hand i've ever seen
I was thinking that yesterday. Probably the funniest thing I've seen in poker

I'm not sure why we wouldn't want to keep the pot small here. You were playing a maniac that would bet/raise every chance no matter what he had, yet you lead into him twice with a weak holding, and another caller in the hand. Pre-flop you had A-10 which is not a great hand and easily dominated. Why repop here, when you know you are getting raised. After the flop you have middle pair, you certainly can't be sure of having the best hand right now, just check/call. It would be different if it was just you and maniac, but it isn't, someone else as shown interest in the hand. When the ace hits, now you probably have the best hand and should bet and call any raises but there is a flush and a straight possibility on the board so I prob wouldn't cap. I would not fold the river. I would check/call all bets. There are alot of hands that you beat that might think they are best like KQ,K-10, A-8, AX, Q-10, etc. Let me ask, would you also fold AK or AQ here? If not then why fold A-10?
Alot of strange things happen in short handed limit holdem. If this were no limit the play would have been alot different. In this situation I feel Ace high beats whatever he has and I'm confident I'm a 60-40 favorite. Not huge but play the odds accordingly. Middle pair in No Limit can mean trouble but middle pair in a short handed limit game, heads up against a maniac, is usually good enough for show down. And since someone else shown interest in the hand thats why i got weary on the turn, even though it made my hand stronger. Yes I would have folded AK and AQ here. AJ i would have certainly kept.
 
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