The information to fold the second nuts on a monster flop.

Y

young hova

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2nd weekend I've played live in casino straight. I'm starting to like live poker a lot. Its way different from online, and I still like online, but its way more fish and donkeys in casinos than online. Anyway on to the hand...

This table was a real limpy table, which I liked. When they raised for the most part they always had power, theres always a couple loose raisers though.

UTG ( he has about 220 in chips to my 350-375) Raises it 4 to 6 (may have been 7), one player called and I look at J8 suited and I call, a few other callers behind me.

the flop comes qd 10s 9d and the original raiser bets 15 in the pot. the player between me and him folds. I consider calling but there is a flush draw with a considerable amount of players (2-4) act on this flop, so I raise it to 45 and everyone folds back to him. This is where he gets his act on...

I can see the pain in his eyes, I had pushed him all in once and took all his chips earlier and he seemed somewhat frustrated. Now I'm used to online poker so its not possible to have an oscar winning performance for selling your hand online. I've only seen players do it on TV, but man I'm starting to realize alot of players put on serious acts to really sell their hands in casinos.

He pondered for a while and than asked me if I flopped it, I didn't respond, after about another minute or so, I make a statement to elicit some information and I say "well, you can fold, or you can raise all in, but you can't just raise because you know I'm going to call", he chuckled when I said that. I think he took that for he might lay down if I raise all in, and thought If I raise and he calls I'll have him priced in/Pot committed.

He raises my 45 total 55 more. Right here I know if I call that, im not going to really be able to fold I'd be getting at least 2.5 to 1 to call his last portion, so I think to myself here its all in or fold. I ask him "Why wouldn't you raise all in if you know I would call a raise? Maybe you dont' want me to lay down and your trying to price me in" He didn't respond. I started second guessing myself and thinking well he could have me beat, but at the same time its highly possible that he could have a set, because he made a raise under the gun and he wasnt the type to raise often. I decided to go all in, he had K J offsuit for the nut straight, real good hand by him, he really sold me on this one.

Anyone think I had enough info to lay my hand down, can I fold this hand in this situation? I'd appreciate all thoughts or input, or even any suggestions on how I couldve played that differently. Personally I think I could have AND should have laid this hand down, regardless I learned a real good lesson about laying down big hands in hold em live on that hand, I'm pretty sure that lay down might be much harder without being able to see the player online.

Here's a couple reasons why I felt I could lay down tho:
-based on other hands if he was more scaredof the flop or his hand wasn't as strong I think he would have reraised me all in.
-He made a raise to price me in after I specifically said I would call a raise at that point im pretty sure he put me on a set or above hoping to have me hooked. He had my respect and knew I could make lay downs so he might have thought a reraise all in would scare me away.
-He bet the flop on a straight flop, first to act, he wasn't really the type to make a continuation bet if the board scared him, especially if he didnt' have at least top pair on a draw heavy board.
-His raise was a little smaller than usual.

reasons against:
-raised under the gun, it was a limpy table, he didn't have to raise and it was a good chance he would get to play that same hand cheaply, he didn't raise often.
 
Wolfpack43ACC

Wolfpack43ACC

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Hell of a lay down if you did do it, unfortunately how can you? It's the ultimate cooler. Kudos to you for actually noticing though because most players would immidiately come over the top of his raise without second thought.
 
K

ketz

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Yeh thats a cooler for sure. I understand why you called and I would have gone through the same process as you did
 
amygrantfan

amygrantfan

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i think you're a really good player for being that analytical about laying it down. i know myself, i would have been all in w/o even thinking, and then if i got beat i woudl say, oh, it happens. but there's no way i personally could lay that down. i am impressed with the number of reasons you've come up with on how to know to lay it down...
 
Schatzdog

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Fold pre-flop.

I'm assuming this is 1/2 or 2/4. But the call is not really the greatest play with others to act behind you.
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

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Fold pre-flop.

I'm assuming this is 1/2 or 2/4. But the call is not really the greatest play with others to act behind you.
^^^^ this...that's a horrible PF call with J8 (sooted or not) and more so with players to act behind you. Not to mention that an UTG raise typically indicates strength.

This is a difficult decision, I'll grant you that. You should really look into trying to simplify your decisions on later streets by making better decisions up front. When someone has a really tough decision on a later street, often times (though not always) it is because of a questionable or bad decision on an earlier street (either bad outright or without considering the consequences coming on later streets).

In fact it is largely this reasoning that prompts so many HA posts to begin with "fold PF". We've all seen people post how they called a 4xBB raise with 10♠4♦, the flop came out J♠ 9♠ 4♠. and villian leads the flop with a 2/3 pot bet, they have bottom pair and the 4th flush draw and want to know what they should do? While the question is what they should do now, this is a hole in their game that needs to be plugged. What they should have done is folded PF as T4o is a lowsy hand facing a 4xBB raise and the poster would not have to face even a marginally difficult decision on the flop if it had been folded. I realize this is not the scenario you posted, but hopefully you see where I'm going with this. Simply your life on later streets by playing more solid poker PF.
 
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amygrantfan

amygrantfan

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ya, after reading more, i've changed my mind. thta should have been folded pre-flop. but still...that said, once you called, there is no way you would lay down that straight.
 
J

joeeagles

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Without actually being there and having watched this guy, its impossible for me to say if I'd make this laydown or not. I can say there are enough ingredients to fold here under ideal conditions, particularly live where you have time to think.

By how you describe this there are at least 5 players in this pot, which he raised to $6 PF. So, when he reraises your $45 to $100, this pot has at least $175, and you need to put $55 to call, which is giving you better than 3 to 1. As you put it, he priced you in, so his reraise is begging for a call. What hand would do that? Well, that's the big question that we need to answer.

Lets start by looking at the board. Its very coordinated, and also has a flush draw. In brief, a dangerous board. Would trips really do this on that flop? Maybe. I think if you have trips on this board, even trip Q's, and your flop bet gets reraised you start wondering if you're beat. Although that's not enough to fold, you wouldn't make such a small reraise like the one he did, because even if he could suspect you're drawing he can't be sure of that and he won't find out anything with his $55 more because you're priced in to call with any draw if you count implied odds. When you consider all this you have to conclude that trips isn't likely, with few exceptions that I'll discuss in a bit.

Its also improbable that he has J8, the same hand you have, because of his UTG raise PF. And top pair, like an AQ hand, would be concerned with your raise.

Does it mean he HAS to have KJ? No, it doesn't, but you could start to suspect it. Even if KJ is not a great hand PF, he still could raise with it even from UTG, I don't see why not considering what some people raise with, particularly if its zoooooooded lol. Plus you forgot to mention if its full table or shorthanded, so I can adjust raising range accordingly. There are other possible hands, like AdTd, but it wouldn't explain the minreraise, nor would any other flush draw, and same is valid for AQ. KJ really looks like the most probable, with the chance its a set. So, lets go back to that, adding a couple more considerations.

The first is any read you have on this player, but even more important is the table image that you have. Without these 2 its impossible to really say if I'd lay down or not. At times your image is even the biggest factor in this because if you'd been LAG and raising a lot or just very aggressive with top pair and draws, then I can see a set playing like this, trying to get you committed and taking the small risk of getting outdrawn on that board. If you haven't really raised much, if you've been tight, then, even if he can't pinpoint you so early on a made hand, he would proceed more cautiously rather than trying to commit you. In that case, his raise means KJ just about 100% of times. I really think that in a hand like this, with the raise he made, your table image and the way you are percieved is more important than any read you have on him. That's not to say what you think of him doesn't count, I'm certainly not going to discount it, and some of the same considerations that were made on your image apply to him also, such as how aggressive he plays the flop, etc

For his possible range we have to include overpairs to the board, since he raised PF. Here's where your read on him also becomes important. Although an overpair wouldn't play like this, that flop minreraise I intend, with some players you never know. But I see that in your thought process, where you tried to read his hand, you never mentioned it which makes me assume you thought he was a better player than that.

In conclusion I did all this writing and I'm not able to tell you if I'd lay this down or not, all I can say is that under some circumstances I might of, in others not.

I will say this though: next time fold J8 PF, it saves trouble and money buddy, way more often than not. I didn't want to start my post with that because I know you wanted to discuss the hand, and not your PF decision to enter this pot. But it shouldn't take away from the argument that you're better off to fold J8, especially OOP like you were. A case can of course be made if you have position and you think you can outplay them, or if you were LAG the whole time and it was working good for you.

GL on your next trip.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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That's why we don't play hands like J8s.
 
C

chevanater

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I wouldnt have called to begin with but if i was BB i probably would have went all in as well
 
Y

young hova

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Yeah it was 1/2 no limit sorry I didn't mention it.

Thanks for the replies. Thanks for bashing me for calling j/8 suited to a raise, lol. I understand this is not the right call to make preflop with players to act, but I like to play suited connectors. It was raised to 6 UTG, if it was raised to anymore than this its no question I'm folding preflop, I'm not going to let this one instance stop me from calling preflop to a 6 dollar raise when I have an edge on the table.

I was playing my rush and this is a type of hand I would play to a 6 dollar raise when I'm rushing. I'm not worried about the fact there are people to act because I EXPECTED CALLERS, thats the thing, that was exactly what I wanted. I knew no one would repop him because that wasn't the type of table this was. The only way he would get reraised was with aces, there were people flat calling raises with high pocket pairs. Like I said this was a limpy table. The risk reward was high IMO, I wasn't looking to hit top pair, I had folded top pair too many times to count, I Was looking for a flop of 2 pair or better, and would've value betted that flop at that.

In fact it is largely this reasoning that prompts so many HA posts to begin with "fold PF". We've all seen people post how they called a 4xBB raise with 10♠4♦, the flop came out J♠ 9♠ 4♠. and villian leads the flop with a 2/3 pot bet, they have bottom pair and the 4th flush draw and want to know what they should do? While the question is what they should do now, this is a hole in their game that needs to be plugged. What they should have done is folded PF as T4o is a lowsy hand facing a 4xBB raise and the poster would not have to face even a marginally difficult decision on the flop if it had been folded. I realize this is not the scenario you posted, but hopefully you see where I'm going with this. Simply your life on later streets by playing more solid poker PF.

I see your point and this is the point everyone else is trying to make, simply your life by folding this preflop, but this example isn't really proportionate to the way this hand was or anyhand I play. I wouldn't call a raise with 10 4 off suit for 4x bb lol, not even to protect my blinds, especially at this table, and in that case above even if I did call that hand is easy to get away from. I had made plenty bigger lay downs than bottom pair on that same exact flop.

By how you describe this there are at least 5 players in this pot, which he raised to $6 PF. So, when he reraises your $45 to $100, this pot has at least $175, and you need to put $55 to call, which is giving you better than 3 to 1. As you put it, he priced you in, so his reraise is begging for a call. What hand would do that? Well, that's the big question that we need to answer.

Lets start by looking at the board. Its very coordinated, and also has a flush draw. In brief, a dangerous board. Would trips really do this on that flop? Maybe. I think if you have trips on this board, even trip Q's, and your flop bet gets reraised you start wondering if you're beat. Although that's not enough to fold, you wouldn't make such a small reraise like the one he did, because even if he could suspect you're drawing he can't be sure of that and he won't find out anything with his $55 more because you're priced in to call with any draw if you count implied odds. When you consider all this you have to conclude that trips isn't likely, with few exceptions that I'll discuss in a bit.

Its also improbable that he has J8, the same hand you have, because of his UTG raise PF. And top pair, like an AQ hand, would be concerned with your raise.

Does it mean he HAS to have KJ? No, it doesn't, but you could start to suspect it. Even if KJ is not a great hand PF, he still could raise with it even from UTG, I don't see why not considering what some people raise with, particularly if its zoooooooded lol. Plus you forgot to mention if its full table or shorthanded, so I can adjust raising range accordingly. There are other possible hands, like AdTd, but it wouldn't explain the minreraise, nor would any other flush draw, and same is valid for AQ. KJ really looks like the most probable, with the chance its a set. So, lets go back to that, adding a couple more considerations.

The first is any read you have on this player, but even more important is the table image that you have. Without these 2 its impossible to really say if I'd lay down or not. At times your image is even the biggest factor in this because if you'd been LAG and raising a lot or just very aggressive with top pair and draws, then I can see a set playing like this, trying to get you committed and taking the small risk of getting outdrawn on that board. If you haven't really raised much, if you've been tight, then, even if he can't pinpoint you so early on a made hand, he would proceed more cautiously rather than trying to commit you. In that case, his raise means KJ just about 100% of times. I really think that in a hand like this, with the raise he made, your table image and the way you are percieved is more important than any read you have on him. That's not to say what you think of him doesn't count, I'm certainly not going to discount it, and some of the same considerations that were made on your image apply to him also, such as how aggressive he plays the flop, etc

For his possible range we have to include overpairs to the board, since he raised PF. Here's where your read on him also becomes important. Although an overpair wouldn't play like this, that flop minreraise I intend, with some players you never know. But I see that in your thought process, where you tried to read his hand, you never mentioned it which makes me assume you thought he was a better player than that.

Joe, I TOTALLY agree with you as far as my image at the table is super important in this hand right here. Thats the thing, I knew he had respect for me, for the most part I hadn't went to the river without showing down the winning hand for at least the past hour. So I knew that he knew I had something, I'm not sure if he knew what I specifically had but at the very least no worse than trips. He couldnt have been worried about the flush, he put me on a hand for sure.

It was full table by the way my fault. See, I actually did consider KJ, but I kinda led to quickly overlooking it for 2 reasons. One like I said his early position raise. Two, the fact that he raised in general, see this dude hadn't been raising, he rarely raised at all so a raise from him was unusual. The times he did raise preflop I never got to see a show down so I never got a chance to see what he would actually raise with, and thats with position being thrown out of the window. See I can't consider what he would raise with in first position if I don't really have a clue what he would raise with in general, I can only assume really, and I guess thats where I messed up somewhat.

I kinda thought he was a better player than that to raise that hand right there like you said (more like I thought he was a tighter player to know not to raise that there), but his mood could have came in to play. He had loss 2 buy ins (weren't devastating amounts), and maybe he just had a "good feeling" about that hand preflop. I noticed live players raising up hands preflop that they normally wouldnt and saying to other players after they hit that they just had a feeling in there gut that that was gonna be a good hand for them, call it bull if you want but people definitely do this live. I think that might have factored in (it could've been his favorite hand for all I know).

Anyway, What I think sold it to me, aside from the all his acting and everything, is the fact that he played his hand like it didnt' matter/didn't care what I had. He knew I had something, but he still played it like It didn't matter, in this case, this is when my "he's got the nuts" radar should go off, because normally when someone plays like they don't care what you have and they respect you they've probably got the nuts. Especially considering I still was clueless of what he would raise up preflop.

Thanks for the solid input joe.

On another note, just to let everyone know once again, I understand this is a fold preflop, and if you think this is an automatic call for me in this situation everytime than you are assuming something about the way I play and you are FAR from being right. I considered all of the factors preflop (from my stack size, to people left to act, etc) before I called, I didn't just wake up to J8 suited and say "oh, my favorite hand, I've got to play this". I had a feeling abotu this hand probably just like the other dude did probably, I got the flop I wanted, it was just a case where someone else had the nuts. I got exactly what I wanted, a juiced up pot at a cheap price preflop with gapped suited connectors and I flopped a straight, it just so happens someone else had gapped connectors also.
 
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