Chalk it up as bad luck?

[Xife]

Game # 499076675 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0.25/0.50 - Table "Uddevalla"

Players(max 6):
lalapo1 (EUR 29.87 in seat 1)
Xife (EUR 61.55 in seat 2)
Volvo-164 (EUR 35.85 in seat 3)
KS0079 (EUR 71.82 in seat 4)
MuckMyAce (EUR 54.49 in seat 5)
Nutz (EUR 42.00 in seat 6)

Dealer: KS0079
Small Blind: MuckMyAce (0.25)
Big Blind: Nutz (0.50)

Xife was dealt: -

lalapo1 Fold
Xife Call (0.50)
Volvo-164 Fold
KS0079 Raise (1.00)
MuckMyAce Call (0.75)
Nutz Call (0.50)
Xife Call (0.50)

Flop - -

MuckMyAce Check
Nutz Check
Xife Check
KS0079 Check

Turn - - -

MuckMyAce Check
Nutz Check
Xife Bet (0.75)
KS0079 Raise (1.50)
MuckMyAce Fold
Nutz Fold
Xife Raise (2.10)
KS0079 Raise (5.25)
Xife All-In (57.70)
KS0079 Call (53.80)

River - - - -

Xife shows: - (three of a kind, eights)
KS0079 shows: - (three of a kind, aces)

KS0079 wins: EUR 122.10 (with three of a kind, aces)
Rake: EUR 3.00

So, I could have probably played it a bit slower but I think in the end I would end up all in.. No flushes or straight possibilities...

Is there any way I could have sniffed this out ? The min raise REALLY threw me off...

Oh and no reads on the player, he just sat down

 

[stormswa]

no

if you dont lose all your money with set over set then you played the hand wrong!!!!

 

[Xife]

Again... I built up my stack again to get back what I lost from that hand.. then this happend... Could I have gotten away from this one ? Played it safe and just called ? (Btw, I realize that the call preflop is horrible and I should have raised, Not sure What I was thinking.. Actually I don't think I was thinking at all... It's really really early and I was just heading off after another round.. Even If I had raised preflop the outcome would be the same.. well maybe he would have pushed all in and I would have folded but I think he would flat call..


Players(max 8):
velina_bg (EUR 28.65 in seat 1)
taxidrvr67 (EUR 72.93 in seat 2)
goki77 (EUR 52.30 in seat 3)
mariuszlaz (EUR 44.78 in seat 4)
Oportunar (EUR 75.69 in seat 5)
kapine (EUR 60.43 in seat 6)
Xife (EUR 90.93 in seat 7)
Marek1975 (EUR 40.13 in seat 8)

Dealer: mariuszlaz
Small Blind: kapine (0.25)
Big Blind: Xife (0.50)

Xife was dealt:

-

Marek1975 Fold
taxidrvr67 Raise (1.00)
goki77 Fold
mariuszlaz Call (1.00)
kapine Fold
Xife Call (0.50)

Flop

-

-

Xife Bet (1.50)
taxidrvr67 Call (1.50)
mariuszlaz Call (1.50)

Turn

-

-

-

Xife Check
taxidrvr67 Check
mariuszlaz Check

River

-

-

-

-

Xife Bet (4.25)
taxidrvr67 Fold
mariuszlaz Raise (14.00)
Xife All-In (84.18)
mariuszlaz All-In (28.28)
Xife Payback (46.15)

Xife shows:

-

(a full house queens full of tens)
mariuszlaz shows:

-

(a full house kings full of tens)

mariuszlaz wins: EUR 89.31 (with a full house kings full of tens)
Rake: EUR 3 .00


Once again I couldn't put him on kings or aces because he didnt raise preflop (Maybe he is just like me and is really tired... altho I don't think it's 6:30 am in europe)... Should I have just called his raise on the river? These sting.. I hate sets now lol. At least for the night. I've gotta stop playing poker this early in the morning.. Good night everyone

 

[beardyian]

I do know of some of us in Europe land who say thats the best time to play as its getting late over there

 

[stormswa]

yep

once again you lost set vs set and you are going to lose alot of money in those hands.

again also remember even though it happened this time most of the time this dosent happen. It is very rare that you get set vs set and when it does the underset usually loses. Hell look at HSP with pros, I remember I think 2 hands where it was set vs set and guess what the underset went bust.

 

[zebranky]

once again you lost set vs set and you are going to lose alot of money in those hands.

again also remember even though it happened this time most of the time this dosent happen. It is very rare that you get set vs set and when it does the underset usually loses. Hell look at HSP with pros, I remember I think 2 hands where it was set vs set and guess what the underset went bust.

I disagree you should have lost all your money, at least on the 88 hand. The bad guy min-raise you twice - PF and on the turn. Unless you have him pegged as a donkey who loves his "raise" button, this should be screaming warnings to you. A minraise doesn't price anyone out as a general rule, so what can he be doing? suckering you in. He could be trying this with AK (top 2 pair), but he could have a set. There's no other big hands out there.
This is where your read/stats on your opponent are critical. without that, I would re-raise him again to around $15 ono the turn, and be willing to fold if he goes over the top of you.

The 2nd one is one where you pretty much have to lose. Mostly, this is because on the turn it is far more likely your opponent had a straight than a set, but also because of the no-raise PF. He hid his hand really well, and from the betting pattern I don't think you can avoid an all-in here.

 

[ChuckTs]

if you dont lose all your money with set over set then you played the hand wrong!!!!

This. But zebranky does make a point about villain's turn min reraise.

I disagree you should have lost all your money, at least on the 88 hand. The bad guy min-raise you twice - PF and on the turn. Unless you have him pegged as a donkey who loves his "raise" button, this should be screaming warnings to you.

I disagree - to the turn raise:

MuckMyAce Check
Nutz Check
Xife Bet (0.75)
KS0079 Raise (1.50)
MuckMyAce Fold
Nutz Fold
Xife Raise (2.10) Reraise minimum? :/ Raise to ~$6 here.
KS0079 Raise (5.25) This does have to make you think, but AK/22 does this too. Maniacs do this with a big ace...What are your reads on him?
Xife All-In (57.70)
KS0079 Call (53.80)

I've seen people minraise with everything from 34s to AA preflop. Now a minimum reraise would make me think, but a minraise PF definitely doesn't mean only AA/KK. This player's obviously a monkey - anybody who minraises doesn't really have a grasp on the game. Do you not see this happening with, say, AK? 22? I agree that his turn reraise definitely has to ring bells in your head, and maybe betting the turn a different way might make it possible to get away, but vs the average 50NL player, I'm stacking him nearly all of the time.

The second hand you just plain can't get away from. Not a chance in hell.

 

[Xife]

The minraise on the turn was to see if he would reraise with a hand like AK or AJ, I wanted to keep him in the pot... I thought if he had AQ or AJ he would be scared away if I bet around $6~

This is where your read/stats on your opponent are critical. without that, I would re-raise him again to around $15 ono the turn, and be willing to fold if he goes over the top of you.

Hmmm, in both situations I had no reads as both players were relativly new to the table.. And the min raising didnt really mean much to me.. At the B2B network this happens pretty much every pot (You would swear you are at a limit game rather then a NL) I was certain he was on AK, or even A8... I just couldnt grasp why he would let 4 people see a flop cheaply when he has AA...


These two pots in the same day really sucks my profit lol.

 

[zebranky]

The minraise on the turn was to see if he would reraise with a hand like AK or AJ, I wanted to keep him in the pot... I thought if he had AQ or AJ he would be scared away if I bet around $6~
.

I think I've said it before, but this is the point I keep hammering into my friends at homegames - minraises should really only be used in two situations - when you have the nuts (and want to keep players in), and when you think your opponent considers his hand second best. Even if its a common thing on a particular table/site, it really accomplishes nothing long-term. Most drawing hands have a +EV to call any minraise.

Hmmm, in both situations I had no reads as both players were relativly new to the table.. And the min raising didnt really mean much to me.. At the B2B network this happens pretty much every pot (You would swear you are at a limit game rather then a NL) I was certain he was on AK, or even A8... I just couldnt grasp why he would let 4 people see a flop cheaply when he has AA....

in his defense, he used a min-raise PF when he had the nut PF hand. Not the best play, but I think he was assuming the SB would fold, and possibly the BB, leaving him playing against 2 or 3 hands.

One other question - and this is a style thing rather than any sort of criticism - you hit a middle-card set - why not bet the flop? It wouldn't help you on this hand, but in other situations...

 

[Xife]

I think I've said it before, but this is the point I keep hammering into my friends at homegames - minraises should really only be used in two situations - when you have the nuts (and want to keep players in), and when you think your opponent considers his hand second best. Even if its a common thing on a particular table/site, it really accomplishes nothing long-term. Most drawing hands have a +EV to call any minraise.

This is exactly why I used my min raise on the turn, I thought I had the best hand.. (Not the nuts but close) and thought he was on AJ or AK and I wanted to keep him in... No way I could have pinned him on the AA or KK...

Edit - > I just looked back on this and yes I agree chuck the min raise was a bad idea, he could have had hearts and I would have given him the odds to catch up... That was my bad

in his defense, he used a min-raise PF when he had the nut PF hand. Not the best play, but I think he was assuming the SB would fold, and possibly the BB, leaving him playing against 2 or 3 hands.

There is no way BB is going to fold... any two cards he could call with.. with 3 others in the pot he is getting 6-1 odds ish... SB will most likely call with some pretty bad hands as well considering the odds.

One other question - and this is a style thing rather than any sort of criticism - you hit a middle-card set - why not bet the flop? It wouldn't help you on this hand, but in other situations...

I figured a slow play was in order... rainbow board, hit middle set ( Which I played as top set because there was no big raise preflop.. maybe that's my mistake)... no straight possibilities.. And the table had been rather aggressive, So I figured I would let them do the betting..

 

[zebranky]

overall, Xife, I tend to agree with how you played it (other than, perhaps, the all-in on the turn - but most likely I would have committed the all-in on the river anyway). It is unlucky to be beaten this way.
But just because I would make the same play doesn't mean its the right way to play it - just that I know in the heat of the moment that I tend to be over-aggressive.

I don't think there is any way not to lose a lot of chips in this situation, or at least none that don't cripple the rest of your game. But it is possible to lose "only" a lot without losing them all. One of my friends at my local casino made what I thought was the most crazy laydown of trip 8's on the river against a maniac, who rivered his trip 9. The maniac had called down all bets to the river, and then raised and re-reraised on my buddy. My friend lost 2/3 of his stack, but he survived to fight another day. I couldn't have made that laydown, but maybe thats why my friend is the "professional" player, and I still have a day job.

 

[Xife]

overall, Xife, I tend to agree with how you played it (other than, perhaps, the all-in on the turn - but most likely I would have committed the all-in on the river anyway). It is unlucky to be beaten this way.
But just because I would make the same play doesn't mean its the right way to play it - just that I know in the heat of the moment that I tend to be over-aggressive.

I don't think there is any way not to lose a lot of chips in this situation, or at least none that don't cripple the rest of your game. But it is possible to lose "only" a lot without losing them all. One of my friends at my local casino made what I thought was the most crazy laydown of trip 8's on the river against a maniac, who rivered his trip 9. The maniac had called down all bets to the river, and then raised and re-reraised on my buddy. My friend lost 2/3 of his stack, but he survived to fight another day. I couldn't have made that laydown, but maybe thats why my friend is the "professional" player, and I still have a day job.

Very good point... I tend to get excited and be over aggressive as well.. I feel there were some (pretty big) holes in my play in these two hands, but I think the results would have been the same either way.