99 on rag flop; 25nl

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Alright, again I've been tag, but fairly aggressive with position. I've made a few raises w/ position on this guy which definitely increases the likelyhood that he's doing this with air, but I'm still stuck with what I should have done.

Villain is 29/4/2.

Pokerstars Game (?) HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/11/06 - 03:18:21 (ET)
Table 'Hodios' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: lledney ($40.85 in chips)
Seat 2: worldrecord1 ($9.55 in chips)
Seat 3: MiklMti ($31.60 in chips)
Seat 4: peiscottster ($40.40 in chips)
Seat 5: Hero ($25 in chips)
Seat 6: beecdo ($24.40 in chips)
Hero : posts small blind $0.10
beecdo: posts big blind $0.25

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [
club9.gif
diam9.gif
]
lledney: folds
worldrecord1: folds
MiklMti: calls $0.25
peiscottster: folds
Hero : raises $0.95 to $1.20
beecdo: folds
MiklMti: calls $0.95

Flop: (Pot: $2.65)
[
spade3.gif
heart6.gif
club2.gif
]
Hero : bets $1.90
MiklMti: raises $2.10 to $4
Hero : ...

Folding is weak.
Calling leaves us in the dark and vulnerable to nearly any turn card
and Raising is overkill, no?

I'm lost.
 
Cheetah

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Isn't the flop action a check-raise? The order of actions seems incorrect.

45 seems quite unlikely unless villains is a total donk.
2 pairs are even less likely.
There is no str8 possible with A.
A set is always possible, but there is nothing we can do about that.

I think the most likely holdings are A6 or an overpair.
If his overpair is bigger than ours, would he just limp preflop? Most players wouldn't. So his overpair is likely 77 or 88.

He probably puts us on big cards and may think we are C-betting. Of course he could have big cards and trying to bluff us.

My inclanation would be to call here since we beat most of the hands he could be doing this with and because we have position. That will keep the pot smaller.

If villain checks the turn, I would probably check behind. I would basically try to go to showdown as cheaply as possible.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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fwiw we're in the SB, out of position.
 
Cheetah

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Since we are OOP, this makes re-raising even less attractive. If we re-raise, not only do we re-open the betting on the flop, but we have to bet again on the turn which would make the pot way too big for our hand.

Folding is a little more attractive OOP, but still, we are probably ahead. I think calling and checking the turn is probably still our best option. We would hope that villain will try to make "value" bets with 77,88 or A6. Of course he could be doing the same when we are beat, but a set or big pair are less likely in my view.
 
tenbob

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I really hate these spots. My usual line is call the flop raise, and attempt to call down light. If the turn is favourable I might lead out again with a "block" bet, I think given his line so far hell keep it cheap enough to call him down.
 
robwhufc

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I really hate these spots. My usual line is call the flop raise, and attempt to call down light. If the turn is favourable I might lead out again with a "block" bet.
That's what I was going to type. You may be ahead, you may be behind. Hopefully you can see the end of the hand cheaply by using a block bet - if he raises this you'll then know that you probably are behind.
 
zachvac

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hmm, despite what everyone else is saying, I really don't like a call here. We still have no idea if it was a complete bluff, or maybe he caught a piece of the flop and wants to know if he's good, assuming you would raise with any flop considering your image. Any board pair or over card and you have no idea what the situation is. He barely made more than a min raise, I would probably make a re-raise here. If he calls or re-raises again, you know you're beat and can pretty much go into check-fold mode (unless of course he calls and you turn a 9). It all depends on how your opponent is viewing you and of course how your opponent is playing as well. I'm putting him here on either a set or 2 big cards. With the set, you're dead, and re-raising gives you that information. With the 2 big cards his raise is a semi-bluff, knowing that it's possible he could take it down right there but knowing that if he pairs either card he's probably good. re-raising here takes away his draw, although the fact that he re-raised you kind of points away from the semi-bluff, if you have been c-betting a lot it opens up a bigger probability that this is what he's doing. The problem I see with the call is either you're giving the worse hands a chance to draw out on you and you're still paying off the better hand if they continue to value bet.

Finally, let's put yourself in the shoes of the other guy. Let's say you look down at AK. Opponent raised and called your re-raise, so you put him on a quality hand. Flop comes and although you didn't hit, it's likely your opponent didn't either. You know he's been playing aggressive and c-betting almost everything, so you're not surprised when you see him lead out with a bet. You decide to try to take it down here, and if you get a call hope for a K or A. Opponent calls. let's assume for this analysis that neither person's hand improves. Now the opponent (you) checks. Now most likely this turn is higher than the previous board so now you're wondering, did the other guy have something like TPTK and is now scared or is he trying to trap. You may fire a bet here to try to take it down, and then sitting with 99, you have NO idea what to do. Or maybe he checks the turn and then the river comes. Assume another blank. You check. Now he really knows that you aren't trapping, because even after he checked the turn you also checked the river. He throws out a bluff, knowing that even if you make the call with AQ he wins, and that you're unlikely to call with just a flopped pair. Meanwhile it's possible that the turn and/or river were above a 9 and it's tough to call with that. And this scenario only outlined what happens if the A or K doesn't come, if AK gets an A or K they win without a bluff (unless turn is A or K, river is 9, then you're doing really well with a very disguised hand).

Saying you want to see a showdown as cheap as possible is all well and good, but what do you do if he fires out a bet on the turn? You can't negotiate that you want the pot small and only call half his bet. If you show weakness (especially if you've been playing aggressive earlier) any good player is going to exploit it.

I'm not sure what happened and I don't know how well that play suggested by most before this would work, but I would definitely throw in a re-raise just to see where you are. If you flat call you're in the dark and likely to see an overcard come. That's the last thing you need to make your decision tougher.
 
tenbob

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Hmmm. Calling down light is solely for pot control, and to catch hands like 88 or indeed as you said maybe hands like AK on a bluff. Raising lets the pot run away from you, if im playing a set here, I call you min-raise, and your (larger) turn bet, and value town the river.

The thing is this situation is "almost" a wa/wb situation, the problem here being oop. I still call his raise and check the turn, youll be susprised how many times hell check behind, call any resonable turn bet and check the river. Remember there is lots of cards that will shut him down on later streets as well, especially if hes holding a hand like 1010 or JJ.
 
ChuckTs

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hmm, despite what everyone else is saying, I really don't like a call here. We still have no idea if it was a complete bluff, or maybe he caught a piece of the flop and wants to know if he's good, assuming you would raise with any flop considering your image. Any board pair or over card and you have no idea what the situation is. He barely made more than a min raise, I would probably make a re-raise here. If he calls or re-raises again, you know you're beat and can pretty much go into check-fold mode (unless of course he calls and you turn a 9).

Stack sizes are too awkward for that IMO. If we reraise, we're leaving ourselves with somewhere around half (or less) our stack. The pot will be more than twice what we have left, and I know I can't get away from that. We'll be pot-committed.

Saying you want to see a showdown as cheap as possible is all well and good, but what do you do if he fires out a bet on the turn? You can't negotiate that you want the pot small and only call half his bet. If you show weakness (especially if you've been playing aggressive earlier) any good player is going to exploit it.

Agree completely, and here's where the problem lies. I think tb has a point that villain will check a lot of turns (or rivers), and we'll get to SD cheaper than we think, but it's still going to be a little expensive.

fwiw reraising probably gets a free turn and/or river...

I just can't bring myself to call down here.

I still call his raise and check the turn, youll be susprised how many times hell check behind, call any resonable turn bet and check the river.

Not sure what you mean here, tb. Think you mistyped...
 
Bombjack

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I jack it up to $10 and fold to shove.

On second thoughts, calling is OK as well - in fact probably better. I never "block bet" though, because I always think how pathetic it looks whenever someone does it.
 
Last edited:
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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That's what I was thinking, but don't we pretty much become pot committed after that?

Maybe not, but I personally am bad enough not to be able to fold after a repop.
 
Bombjack

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Reminds me a bit of a hand I played earlier today (I'd been running over the table with a big stack, got coolered so no longer had a big stack, but playing pretty LAG in position, so my raises probably weren't getting that much respect) - which shows why calling can be better. Depends on your table image though.

Texas Hold'em $0.50-$0.50 PL (real money)
Table Lagos, 6 Nov 2007 7:42 AM ET

Seat 1: xfirdellx ($144.40 in chips)
Seat 3: MadHand76 ($13.85 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero [ 10D,10S ] ($59.25 in chips)
Seat 6: DNiebler1 ($33.60 in chips)
Seat 9: nesquik . ($50.10 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
nesquik . posts blind ($0.50), xfirdellx posts blind ($0.50).

PRE-FLOP
MadHand76 calls $0.50, Hero bets $2.50, DNiebler1 calls $2.50, nesquik . folds, xfirdellx folds, MadHand76 folds.

FLOP [board cards 6D,2H,2D ]
Hero bets $4.50, DNiebler1 bets $9, Hero calls $4.50.

TURN [board cards 6D,2H,2D,QH ]
Hero checks, DNiebler1 bets $22.10 and is all-in, Hero calls $22.10.

RIVER [board cards 6D,2H,2D,QH,3C ]

SHOWDOWN
DNiebler1 shows [ KS,AH ]
Hero shows [ 10D,10S ]
Hero wins $65.70.

SUMMARY
Dealer: DNiebler1
Pot: $68.70, (including rake: $3)
xfirdellx loses $0.50
MadHand76 loses $0.50
Hero bets $33.60, collects $65.70, net $32.10
DNiebler1 loses $33.60
nesquik . loses $0.50
 
Bombjack

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That's what I was thinking, but don't we pretty much become pot committed after that?

Maybe not, but I personally am bad enough not to be able to fold after a repop.

At least if you re-pop, you know where you stand. He's never pushing here unless you're beat, since you raised OOP preflop, and 3-bet the flop. It just might not be the best way to get value / control losses.
 
Ronaldadio

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Isn't the flop action a check-raise? The order of actions seems incorrect.

45 seems quite unlikely unless villains is a total donk.

Interesting point here. One of the posts recently suggests that calling a raise with position with suited connectors is a decent move for exactly this scenario.

So don`t discount 45s, 23s, 65s, etc, etc. A6s is a possible holding. What I would be more concerned about is that he is holding premium pair.

My play is to reraise. If he goes over the top again I`m out.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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6 max has a lot more aggression than 9. At 9 his reraise is more likely to represent a set, I think. Here, there's more of a chance it represents A6, possibly 77/88 and he's testing to see if you're c-betting with AK/AQ, but that depends on what you're seen of what he's shown down. I haven't see a lot of 6max players limp TT+ so I don't think you're behind a bigger pair.
 
zachvac

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That's what I was thinking, but don't we pretty much become pot committed after that?

Maybe not, but I personally am bad enough not to be able to fold after a repop.

Well if he shoves, you pretty much know you're behind. Unless you're getting odds to call for your 3 outs, it's an easy fold IMO.
 
Bombjack

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Well if he shoves, you pretty much know you're behind. Unless you're getting odds to call for your 3 outs, it's an easy fold IMO.
You mean two Nines and the Joker?

Joker would give them quads so it's 2.

Anyway yeah, you're right, definitely not pot-committed after a 3-bet on the flop.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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You mean two Nines and the Joker?

Joker would give them quads so it's 2.

Anyway yeah, you're right, definitely not pot-committed after a 3-bet on the flop.

lol, yeah I meant 2, my mistake. I also didn't realize this was 6-max, haven't played much on those tables in if my 9-max table drops to less than 7 I try to find a full table (well, one that'll be full once I join)
 
Cheetah

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Medium pairs are always hard to play as pair after the flop. It is like playing A9 and the board comes 9 high. In fact, this current situation is even worse, because we can beat more hands(namelye A6, 77, 88), but are not sure.

One way to play these pairs is as small pairs and try to flop a set. In this case, had you checked the flop, you could have called a bet and make it more likely you will go to a cheap showdown, or fold in later streets with smaller losses. (In tournaments, I usually play these pairs like that.)

Also, as pointed out above, many cards will scare hands that beat us, such as TT. We could use these scare cards with a blocking bet(especially on the river), or just let villain slowdown.

The advantage of the passive approach is that we avoid very difficult situations in big pots with a marginal single pair, especially OOP.

In fact, if we push this further, we could have even limped preflop rationalizing it that blinds are not worth stealing, we are OOP, and it is unlikely we will see a favorable flop with 99.

I would not re-raise here. We are creating a large pot OOP with a very marginal hand. Surely we can find a better spot for our chips.
 
Bombjack

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Sorry for off-topic, but I'm not sure if I'm hallucinating or not...

Can anyone tell me, if you move your head back about a metre from the monitor, and stare at Cheetah's avatar for a few seconds, does anything weird seem to happen?
 
P

phatjose

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If his overpair is bigger than ours, would he just limp preflop? Most players wouldn't. So his overpair is likely 77 or 88.
I'm not so sure you can eliminate AA and KK based on this (moreso the AA). I see quite a few people who limp-call with those hands to try and mask the strength. I also don't see how you can eliminate 45s or something like 23s, seeing as how he did limp initially, since this is exactly what you want with a hand like that, to see a cheap flop. He can then call the raise knowing he has position for the rest of the hand.

I really don't like calling this bet. I think we either reraise (he barely raised more than a min raise on us as it is), or we fold.
 
Cheetah

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I'm not so sure you can eliminate AA and KK based on this (moreso the AA). I see quite a few people who limp-call with those hands to try and mask the strength. I also don't see how you can eliminate 45s or something like 23s, seeing as how he did limp initially, since this is exactly what you want with a hand like that, to see a cheap flop. He can then call the raise knowing he has position for the rest of the hand.

I really don't like calling this bet. I think we either reraise (he barely raised more than a min raise on us as it is), or we fold.

You can't elminiate anything. Villain could have 26 for all we know. It is just that some holdings are more likely than others. Without specific knowledge of villain's tendencies, we have to go with overall likely holdings.
 
Cheetah

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Sorry for off-topic, but I'm not sure if I'm hallucinating or not...

Can anyone tell me, if you move your head back about a metre from the monitor, and stare at Cheetah's avatar for a few seconds, does anything weird seem to happen?

I tried that and my avatar got smaller.:)
 
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