$600 NLHE Full Ring: Live 2/5 Donked into for PSB 4 ways, can we ever call?

[c0rnBr34d]

This spot may only be interesting to me because I log so few live hours in a year but I can't remember the last time I was in the spot (4 ways at least).

Hero MAG $1060 effective. Should be viewed on the tight aggressive side. Getting a lot of strong starting hands this session but still getting folds pre.
Showed down one hand where we opened JTo from the BU and got called by 97o in the BB. Got x/r on T high flop, called turn barrel, river x/x and we hold. Most other hands standard strong hands. Getting lots of folds to my pre flop raises all night, some due to my nit image with regs.

V 30s reg sitting $2k+. Plays too many hands and has some aggression but would not describe as LAG. Kind of standard 2/5 reg reads.

OTTH: Two limps in EP, V also limps MP. Hero raises to $35 in CO with T

8

. The BU is super weak tight and will only continue with AQ+, TT+ so it's almost like I get the BU twice per orbit with any playable hand. BU folds, blinds fold. All 3 limpers call. Figures I go from getting no action to too much action.

Flop (~$140 after rake): Q

J

6

Limpers both check and V donk leads $140. What!? I'm legit stunned. I'm not sure if this is a super strong made hand or a draw. I'm thinking QJ, 66, Ac6c all make some sense but 66 should be x/r some of the time too. Does he have any bluffs here like T9 or KT with one club? Can we ever call here? We could be in horrible shape vs A6cc for example but if it's 66 or QJ and he will pay us off aren't we risking $140 for $1300 (the $420 pot from the flop call + our $880 behind if we hit) to draw one card (any club or any 9)? It's possible we could get additional action behind from hands like T9 or KT as well. But against hands like KT (dominating our straight draw) or A9cc we aren't always drawing clean anyways so we have to dump it right?

 

[gustav197poker]

I agree. While your intention was good in preflop now your hand blocks most of the bluffs and semibluffs that can play this flop, like KT; AT; JT; QT; T9; 88; TT. If we enter the flop we must assume that we can achieve a high fold equity (which seems unlikely in this position).
Your color scale really seems quite neutral and you can only expect a better color from the side of the villains.
As an additional suggestion, opening this type of low middle hands can bring this type of difficulty in the flop, when you cannot control most valuable hands or high combinations that can be filtered, on a table of limpers. When you get paid for the opening, you are probably mastered in kicker. However, if you are looking for more variety of combinations such as K-4 for example, you can cover at least a good part of the low range, that the villains will not protect enough, as long as they have too much temptation with their draws.
Regards.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Thanks for the feedback. I agree we do block a lot of bluffs so V is weighted towards value. This does make calling more attractive since we are more likely to get paid if we hit. I also appreciate your suggestion on raising middling suited one gappers. I'm not raising this hand 100% of the time in the situation. This was a live adjustment due to the fact that I was getting lots of pre flop folds. I would rather play this hand heads up in position than limp and play 6 ways or limp and get raised.

Interestingly most of my poker friends have suggested that we are deep enough to call one time and evaluate the turn since we have position and can better realize our equity if we hit. Only one friend so far is saying it's a definite fold. I thought it was pretty close and a tough spot. I'm still not sure which option I like best. I just know raising was by far worst. Fold and call seem pretty close, but we are making a lot of assumptions if we call so folding may still be best.

 

[Ianmacca99]

Is he going full pot for value or looking for protection with Qx with maybe one club. I would personally call to see a turn. Raising would be ambitious but its a close spot between call and fold you've seen villan playing lots of hands and you do block some of his semi bluff range so a tough spot. Bet size is kind of saying either get out of my pot or trying to make it look that way with 66 QJ. See one more street and reavaluate on the turn if we hit think we can get paid against these hands

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Is he going full pot for value or looking for protection with Qx with maybe one club. I would personally call to see a turn. Raising would be ambitious but its a close spot between call and fold you've seen villan playing lots of hands and you do block some of his semi bluff range so a tough spot. Bet size is kind of saying either get out of my pot or trying to make it look that way with 66 QJ. See one more street and reavaluate on the turn if we hit think we can get paid against these hands

My read could be off but I don't have AcQx or KcQx or any one pair Qx in his range when he donks into a tight player on a board that crushes our PFR range for full pot. Your response is in line with most of my other poker friends though to peel and see a turn this deep in position.

 

[eetenor]

My read could be off but I don't have AcQx or KcQx or any one pair Qx in his range when he donks into a tight player on a board that crushes our PFR range for full pot. Your response is in line with most of my other poker friends though to peel and see a turn this deep in position.

Thank U 4 posting.

We have to be careful about giving our villains equivalent perception to our own. You believe villain should see you as tight but villain may only be thinking about you raising with J10 in POS and then not folding to a check raise with a pair of 10's jack kicker.

Also you said you have won a number of hands with no showdown. Villains see that and could think lots of bluffs not lots of premium hands.

What range could villain have if they thought you were that player?

How would they play their range if they thought you were that player?

Why with a near nut hand and a big stack would your villain not check raise that flop?

If the BU is so tight do we really need to raise to buy the BU?

Would your decision be much easier if you had limped even if the BU called?

Were any villains limping Axs or Kxs EP?

You suggest a table mind set shift from tight to loose in this hand.
Did something happen at the table that we could have foreseen this shift?


Hope this helps

 

[GWU73]

Realistically you have a situation where you likely face a strong made hand and / or draws that crush yours. I would fold.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Thank U 4 posting.

We have to be careful about giving our villains equivalent perception to our own. You believe villain should see you as tight but villain may only be thinking about you raising with J10 in POS and then not folding to a check raise with a pair of 10's jack kicker.

Also you said you have won a number of hands with no showdown. Villains see that and could think lots of bluffs not lots of premium hands.

What range could villain have if they thought you were that player?

How would they play their range if they thought you were that player?

Why with a near nut hand and a big stack would your villain not check raise that flop?

If the BU is so tight do we really need to raise to buy the BU?

Would your decision be much easier if you had limped even if the BU called?

Were any villains limping Axs or Kxs EP?

You suggest a table mind set shift from tight to loose in this hand.
Did something happen at the table that we could have foreseen this shift?


Hope this helps

Lots of points to cover here. Vs read could be slightly effected by our more active than usual streak this session but V is a reg and we have played together over the years so I doubt he thinks I'm a completely different player. Perhaps on a hot streak and opening up a little but I don't expect him to choose this spot in a 4 way raised pot to make a full pot sized donk bet without a strong hand when QQ and JJ and KK+ are in our range.

Because V expects us to connect with that flop a lot, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KK+ etc and because there are a lot of bad turn cards that make straights and flushes on the turn a large bet isn't bad if he has a hand like QJ, or 66.

We raise our CO wider here because it will increase our equity by thinning the field and there is little to no chance that BU will ever 3 bet us. Limping caps our range and opens us up to squeezes from the blinds. It also means we have to flop very well to win against several players.

If we limp we are essentially playing bingo instead of poker. It also doesn't guarantee we see a cheap flop since the blinds can squeeze. Post flop it is only easier if we flop 2 pair or better otherwise our range is capped and it's harder to bluff against larger fields.

Yes some Vs were limping weak Aces and Kings.

The table in general wasn't playing tight. Other players were getting substantially more action than me. It's hard to say why this time they decided to call but once the first guy calls it often prices other limpers in.

 

[fundiver199]

But against hands like KT (dominating our straight draw) or A9cc we aren't always drawing clean anyways so we have to dump it right?

Suited connectors almost never draw to the nuts, so if we are thinking like this, we should probably just have folded preflop and not even gotten involved at all. The spot does kind of suck, but I think, we at least have to pay off this bet. If someone else check-raise, or if we miss the turn and face another big bet, that would be the time, where I get out.

For the record I dont think, this pot sized donk bet is a very strong hand, since these would typically go for a check-raise. Its more likely, that its like a small dog, which is all bark and no bite. He is acting tough, but in reality he is just scared and want everyone to fold. Could be a top pair or a draw, but usually not anything better than that.

 

[eetenor]

We raise our CO wider here because it will increase our equity by thinning the field and there is little to no chance that BU will ever 3 bet us. Limping caps our range and opens us up to squeezes from the blinds. It also means we have to flop very well to win against several players.

If we limp we are essentially playing bingo instead of poker. It also doesn't guarantee we see a cheap flop since the blinds can squeeze. Post flop it is only easier if we flop 2 pair or better otherwise our range is capped and it's harder to bluff against larger fields.

Yes some Vs were limping weak Aces and Kings.

The table in general wasn't playing tight. Other players were getting substantially more action than me. It's hard to say why this time they decided to call but once the first guy calls it often prices other limpers in.

Thank U 4 Responding.

Some thoughts regarding your points above about a limp. Limping is an effective tool not just a bingo play in live poker. Especially for a player that is seen by the regs as a NIT.

For instance over limping with AA when we know that a squeeze is likely is a very good play.

In your spot where you were getting too many folds, a limp trap strategy could have been effective. So the 108cc here is great opportunity for an advertisement limp. You do not even have to show down the hand you just have to be seen limping. So you should draw attention to your limp by saying "I guess it is going to be a family pot".

You are paying 1 BB to let everyone know you play weakly too and that it is ok to attack your limps. Then you limp trap only for a couple of hours and do another advertisement when necessary. In a good spot like this one, with a hand we can get away from in POS that also flops nut straights vs 2 pair hands and lower straights and flushes there is no better advertisement limp.
We also get to chase spots like this for less and if we showdown everyone sees we are not MR NIT. We can even call flop, smaller pot, fold turn, face up and benefit from players thinking we can be easily bluffed therefore we are weak. When in fact we are only ever doing this because of our NIT image and not getting the proper action on our good hands.

As to increasing our equity by raising. We will be getting most 97 86 87 63cc etc to fold and will be called by AJcc KQcc J10hh etc so we will reduce the number of players but increase our risk of ruin and limit the upside to hitting our hand. Are you playing for stacks with a 10 high flush, no you folded that draw here. A 10 high nut straight though... you can play for stacks but you need 97 off to be in the field.

Just some thoughts on how you might use limping as an effective tool in your live game tool kit.

Hope this helps.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Suited connectors almost never draw to the nuts, so if we are thinking like this, we should probably just have folded preflop and not even gotten involved at all. The spot does kind of suck, but I think, we at least have to pay off this bet. If someone else check-raise, or if we miss the turn and face another big bet, that would be the time, where I get out.

For the record I dont think, this pot sized donk bet is a very strong hand, since these would typically go for a check-raise. Its more likely, that its like a small dog, which is all bark and no bite. He is acting tough, but in reality he is just scared and want everyone to fold. Could be a top pair or a draw, but usually not anything better than that.

Thanks, always appreciate your insight. Yeah, suited gappers are fun, just wanted to point out part of the thought process. I did ultimately call flop but it felt like it was too light in the moment. Lot's of info to process in a few seconds and the spot felt unfamiliar. A lot of players that I respect are suggesting peeling this deep in position but most also think folding is ok.

I've gotten a lot of push back on ranging as well. There will always be disagreements here. Sometimes Heros ranging will be more accurate, sometimes commenters ranging will be better. If we give V more weaker draws and 1 pair hands then call and raising becomes more attractive and we can't really fold much at all.

 

[gustav197poker]

Thank U 4 Responding.

Some thoughts regarding your points above about a limp. Limping is an effective tool not just a bingo play in live poker. Especially for a player that is seen by the regs as a NIT.

For instance over limping with AA when we know that a squeeze is likely is a very good play.

In your spot where you were getting too many folds, a limp trap strategy could have been effective. So the 108cc here is great opportunity for an advertisement limp. You do not even have to show down the hand you just have to be seen limping. So you should draw attention to your limp by saying "I guess it is going to be a family pot".

You are paying 1 BB to let everyone know you play weakly too and that it is ok to attack your limps. Then you limp trap only for a couple of hours and do another advertisement when necessary. In a good spot like this one, with a hand we can get away from in POS that also flops nut straights vs 2 pair hands and lower straights and flushes there is no better advertisement limp.
We also get to chase spots like this for less and if we showdown everyone sees we are not MR NIT. We can even call flop, smaller pot, fold turn, face up and benefit from players thinking we can be easily bluffed therefore we are weak. When in fact we are only ever doing this because of our NIT image and not getting the proper action on our good hands.

As to increasing our equity by raising. We will be getting most 97 86 87 63cc etc to fold and will be called by AJcc KQcc J10hh etc so we will reduce the number of players but increase our risk of ruin and limit the upside to hitting our hand. Are you playing for stacks with a 10 high flush, no you folded that draw here. A 10 high nut straight though... you can play for stacks but you need 97 off to be in the field.

Just some thoughts on how you might use limping as an effective tool in your live game tool kit.

Hope this helps.

Your point is very interesting and applied to a limper table. But the credibility of our villains could affect our range, whether in post flop decisions like this. Where it is unlikely to generate a reasonable fold equity. With T tip I think that if we are too deep, maybe we can call for the next street, but with several active positions it is likely that our outs are trapped in a larger structure. That's why I lean towards a fold of protection. Would we defend a position where we can cover only 60% of the v range? It is a risky line. If we can do it in depth of stack, but I feel that we are proposing unnecessary equity in river.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Some thoughts regarding your points above about a limp. Limping is an effective tool not just a bingo play in live poker. Especially for a player that is seen by the regs as a NIT.

For instance over limping with AA when we know that a squeeze is likely is a very good play.

In your spot where you were getting too many folds, a limp trap strategy could have been effective. So the 108cc here is great opportunity for an advertisement limp. You do not even have to show down the hand you just have to be seen limping. So you should draw attention to your limp by saying "I guess it is going to be a family pot".

You are paying 1 BB to let everyone know you play weakly too and that it is ok to attack your limps. Then you limp trap only for a couple of hours and do another advertisement when necessary. In a good spot like this one, with a hand we can get away from in POS that also flops nut straights vs 2 pair hands and lower straights and flushes there is no better advertisement limp.
We also get to chase spots like this for less and if we showdown everyone sees we are not MR NIT. We can even call flop, smaller pot, fold turn, face up and benefit from players thinking we can be easily bluffed therefore we are weak. When in fact we are only ever doing this because of our NIT image and not getting the proper action on our good hands.

As to increasing our equity by raising. We will be getting most 97 86 87 63cc etc to fold and will be called by AJcc KQcc J10hh etc so we will reduce the number of players but increase our risk of ruin and limit the upside to hitting our hand. Are you playing for stacks with a 10 high flush, no you folded that draw here. A 10 high nut straight though... you can play for stacks but you need 97 off to be in the field.

Just some thoughts on how you might use limping as an effective tool in your live game tool kit.

Thanks again for your suggestions. I do limp sometimes but I try to use it as little as possible. Mostly set mining, trapping with very aggressive players behind, or playing lower suited connectors where risk of squeeze is low. In this case the BU never raises behind and if the blinds raise they will make it 40+ with so many limpers. Now we have to fold and wasted our 1 BB. If it does limp around our expected value probably looks like this:
Tc8c vs 7 other random hands, Hero is 15% of $40 pot, expected value = $6 + nit has position on us. In this case we will have to crush the flop or get lucky or play perfect to win the hand.


Instead of this:
Tc8c vs AhJs, Hero has 40% of $80 flop pot, expected value = $32 + position. In this case it is much easier to realize our equity even if we miss.

It does allow us to chase spots like this cheaper but we also win less when we get there and have more chance of facing a higher straight or flush. Typically I have found that straying from more standard plays to try to influence how the table plays against you at live poker can be more effort than it is worth. At maybe 30 hands per hour and with Vs you may not see again I'd rather adjust the other way and play bigger pots in position.

Also your assumptions were not correct. I am playing for stacks with a T high flush. I did not fold this hand. I just felt in the moment like my flop call was bad, that's why I posted the hand.

 

[Ianmacca99]

I am playing for stacks with a T high flush. I did not fold this hand. I just felt in the moment like my flop call was bad, that's why I posted the hand

I haven't seen you speak about how the hand played out did you get there? Fold the turn? What happens next. thanks for posting

 

[c0rnBr34d]

I tanked for 30-60 seconds and called. Other two fold. $420 in the pot. I turn the 7c. V checks. I tank 30 seconds, check my cards, bet $325. V thinks for about 10 secs and calls. River 9d. V checks, I take about 10 seconds and announce all in for about $550. V tank calls after about 90 seconds. I show, he mucks. Had to be 66 right?

 

[gustav197poker]

I tanked for 30-60 seconds and called. Other two fold. $420 in the pot. I turn the 7c. V checks. I tank 30 seconds, check my cards, bet $325. V thinks for about 10 secs and calls. River 9d. V checks, I take about 10 seconds and announce all in for about $550. V tank calls after about 90 seconds. I show, he mucks. Had to be 66 right?

Thank you for showing us the development of the hand in post flop. Actually this villain could have a much broader range, given its described characteristics. I probably find excessive flotation from the flop with a top pair (for example AsQs or Qs-Ks). And I could even carry A-J, for which his call on the flop was incorrect in my opinion. But given the amount invested by the villain, he probably defends his rank more times, from a structure formed by double couples like Q-J, or sets like 6-6.
The villain is more likely to defend his value line better and can turn his range into bluff catchers if he has upper straight blockers and has some clover in his hand. So I probably think that his rank could have a neutral tptk scale, or a second best pair that could he could not protect correctly on the flop and rely too much on their implied odds.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

But all of those one pair hands with the Ace or K of clubs have to fold river. Even QJ should have a hard time calling river when both the straight and flush come in and you are beat by all sets. I think V is more likely to have 66 or KcTx. I’ve never seen him bluff catch a double barrel this large with one pair.