duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
TheKid84
Legend
Silver Level
This.....
I want to learn this...
Googling this now...
(yes I know, I need to do more poker reading, but isn't that the point of this badass forum?)
MisterLongFace
Rock Star
Silver Level
he is a former dealer and definitely not clueless, all things i understood immediately on the first read. the fact that he is a former dealer actually convinces me more he has decided to gamble. he has some kind of hand, not total garbage, and he wants to play for some money with it. i feel certain he would do this and not have a monster based on what i read here, anyways thats what i see.
MisterLongFace
Rock Star
Silver Level
i look at this more of an opportunity where we can play a strong hand against someone and disregard how they are playing it, which is usually bad advice. If I had to take how he is playing into consideration tho, based on what we know of him thus far, would say 99-JJ or AJ,AQ suited are strong candidates.
B
baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
-- people generally aren't ISOing as wide as you think
-- people aren't 4-betting super wide either
-- confused on stakes, is this a 2/5 game or a $1/$3 game with $500 max buyin?
Think this is pretty close; he's not a nit so don't mind stacking off. Actually think calling and donk-shoving undercard flops is a good idea.
-- people aren't 4-betting super wide either
-- confused on stakes, is this a 2/5 game or a $1/$3 game with $500 max buyin?
Think this is pretty close; he's not a nit so don't mind stacking off. Actually think calling and donk-shoving undercard flops is a good idea.
MisterLongFace
Rock Star
Silver Level
"people generally aren't ISOing as wide as you think"
people generally aren't, but this guy is
" people aren't 4-betting super wide either"
people aren't, but this guy is
"Actually think calling and donk-shoving undercard flops is a good idea."
how is this a good idea. if you intended to call and shove any flop, u would say that. so specifying undercard flop, the conclusion is you are consider folding on diff kind of flop. but folding under any circumstance to this guy post flop, who has already put in 260 of his 500 is just plain bad. and look at the flip side, say flop brings all undercards, you shove, this guy who already has half chips in preflop, calls no matter what with his PP or 2 overs, so what is gained by calling pre. that is why this is shove or fold pre.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
not true if he 4bets a very small % of the time.
Misterlong there is absolutely no reason to cap his range and most of waht you said is incorrect
XXPXXP
Legend
Silver Level
actually depends on how many AK would u put in his range?
yeah there are really a lot of dead money in the pot now!
simply for equity you only need to risk about 390 to win a total present pot of 402? plus this EX dealer's potential 240 chips?
then if you put his hand to be QQ+, AK , obv shove is +EV
but if you put his range to be QQ+ only, I don't think this you could +EV shove QQ here!
so it depends on your reads, for me, I might half shove , half fold. I will toss a coin...if heads I am all in, If back I fold...
yeah there are really a lot of dead money in the pot now!
simply for equity you only need to risk about 390 to win a total present pot of 402? plus this EX dealer's potential 240 chips?
then if you put his hand to be QQ+, AK , obv shove is +EV
but if you put his range to be QQ+ only, I don't think this you could +EV shove QQ here!
so it depends on your reads, for me, I might half shove , half fold. I will toss a coin...if heads I am all in, If back I fold...
A
AlwaysPlanAhe
Rock Star
Silver Level
I think the merits of discussing a call followed by getting it in on a non ace or king flop v's shoving pre would make sense if we're deeper than 83bb's. Villain's 4bet is so big that it's just a case of weighing range v's range and making a decision. And 83bb's deep I'm never folding QQ because villain is never folding AK. Also debating about whether he would flat AK or 4bet is also kind of moot because whatever % of the time he could flat AK I also suspect he could spazz 4bet with something like TT/JJ or even 67s weighing the 5bet shove even more profitably in our favour.
Fwiw if we're maybe 120ish deep or more then I prefer flat call pre and c/r'ing flop if we have overpair.
Fwiw if we're maybe 120ish deep or more then I prefer flat call pre and c/r'ing flop if we have overpair.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
We have no idea how often he 4bets except to assume it's small because live it normally will be tiny. But it doesn't really matter how often he does it - we should still have a plan for when it does happen. It doesn't happen so little that we should be unprepared for it imo.
Also, just kind of thinking out loud here: Is there any point to calling and then shoving instead of 5bet-shipping it pre? As was said, the 4bet is so large that we're looking at an SPR of < 1 post flop if we flat. Plus if an A or K does flop, we can't really abandon ship, can we? Or can we? I'm not really sure.
needaGF
Rock Star
Silver Level
He has raised 3/5 hands and this time he raised at BTN, so his range may be a little wide than you thought. Also you are holding the 3rd best hand. There are already lot of money in the pot. I will shove to find his holding JJ TT or AK
A
AlwaysPlanAhe
Rock Star
Silver Level
For me personally abandoning ship is the point of flatting to see a flop. If I'm putting villain on a super strong 4bet range as is the case here where we have to weigh it 85-90% toward AA/KK/AK then we can get away from our hand if flop comes Axx or Kxx because if villain wasn't ahead preflop he sure is on the flop. Also 12% of the time we bink a Q or he gets clever and checks TPTK on the flop giving us another chance to bink set on the turn.
This is only if I am putting villain on a super, super strong 4bet range otherwise I'm more than happy aipf.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Gotcha, makes sense. But yeah, against someone where the only info is they've raised 3 of their first 5 hands, I'm probably just getting it in.
MisterLongFace
Rock Star
Silver Level
your statement here is so vague and unspecific that i don't know how you differ or on what. very unhelpful and not productive to the conversation, but thanks for letting me know you disagree i guess.
how do i know more than the OP? everything i know is based on what they posted on the thread. it is there for all to see, so i know the same as OP and the same as you for that matter or anyone who reads this.
He has raised 3/5 hands and this time he raised at BTN, so his range may be a little wide than you thought. Also you are holding the 3rd best hand. There are already lot of money in the pot. I will shove to find his holding JJ TT or AK
yes, this exactly .... you can put him on a wide range ... anything from any middle pocket pair to JJ to AQ or AJ suited and even JQ or KJ suited, so you can't abandon flop, and the key is u r holding QQ so you have most of his range dominated. If someone wants to flat call and shove any flop, i say ok, it all comes out the same, cuz he is calling a shove post or pre.
M
Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
Ok cliff notes
Misterlong is misinformed because villain does have AA/KK AK in his range.
We have to get it in.
We cant possibly call and get it in or as baudib said shove undercards. This idea is the pits of stupidity because then we lose every single AK combo which we kinda need in for us to be stacking.
Misterlong is misinformed because villain does have AA/KK AK in his range.
We have to get it in.
We cant possibly call and get it in or as baudib said shove undercards. This idea is the pits of stupidity because then we lose every single AK combo which we kinda need in for us to be stacking.
A
akb1979
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Guys...I am new and not so experienced...pls advise what should one do if hero had AK or KK in the above situation.
I know it is deviation from the topic...but would appreciate your replies and help.
I play online mostly on nl 50.
I know it is deviation from the topic...but would appreciate your replies and help.
I play online mostly on nl 50.
K
kanselau
Rock Star
Silver Level
I actually raised all in , and lost the hand to AA. Despite this I agree with most of you that shoving here is the best option.
1. Villain has raised 3/5 hands not a great sample size but never the less it suggests that he plays an aggessive game and pounds the limpers, suggesting that his range might be wider than absolute monsters.
2. Exactly this" Originally Posted by AlwaysPlanAhe
$390 into what would be a final pot of $1,026 means you need >39% hand equity v's his range.
QQ v's {KK+, AK} = 39.86%
Shove.
3. This " Originally Posted by OMGITSOVER9K
if we fold QQ to a 4bet IP we're super exploitable
Question to baudib:
Originally Posted by baudib1-- people generally aren't ISOing as wide as you think
-- people aren't 4-betting super wide either
-- confused on stakes, is this a 2/5 game or a $1/$3 game with $500 max buyin?
Actually think calling and donk-shoving undercard flops is a good idea.
This is a 2/5 game
Agrred with people not 4-betting wide , this is especially true live.
Please correct me if im misinterpreting your advice.
Dont understand how calling ( investing half of our stack ) and folding with a SPR < 1 is ever correct on a A or K flop?
What if he was making a play wider than we thought - we fold the best hand, we check he shoves and then what we fold?
The only reason I can really think of to call and donk flop is to keep villain in the hand , if he is making a play with something stupid like a suited connector and might fold to a 5-bet and then will stack of if he hits TP or a draw. But then it would make sense to donk any flop regadless not just non A or K flop?
1. Villain has raised 3/5 hands not a great sample size but never the less it suggests that he plays an aggessive game and pounds the limpers, suggesting that his range might be wider than absolute monsters.
2. Exactly this" Originally Posted by AlwaysPlanAhe
$390 into what would be a final pot of $1,026 means you need >39% hand equity v's his range.
QQ v's {KK+, AK} = 39.86%
Shove.
3. This " Originally Posted by OMGITSOVER9K
if we fold QQ to a 4bet IP we're super exploitable
Question to baudib:
Originally Posted by baudib1-- people generally aren't ISOing as wide as you think
-- people aren't 4-betting super wide either
-- confused on stakes, is this a 2/5 game or a $1/$3 game with $500 max buyin?
Actually think calling and donk-shoving undercard flops is a good idea.
This is a 2/5 game
Agrred with people not 4-betting wide , this is especially true live.
Please correct me if im misinterpreting your advice.
Dont understand how calling ( investing half of our stack ) and folding with a SPR < 1 is ever correct on a A or K flop?
What if he was making a play wider than we thought - we fold the best hand, we check he shoves and then what we fold?
The only reason I can really think of to call and donk flop is to keep villain in the hand , if he is making a play with something stupid like a suited connector and might fold to a 5-bet and then will stack of if he hits TP or a draw. But then it would make sense to donk any flop regadless not just non A or K flop?
A
AlwaysPlanAhe
Rock Star
Silver Level
Remember we're calling and folding an Axx, Kxx flop only because we have villain on an incredibly tight 4bet range.
If we weigh 90% of his range to {KK+, AK} then on either Axx or Kxx flop our hand only has 7.39% equity. It doesn't really matter what villain has the other 10% of the time because we're so completely dead 90% of the time that we can't make up the equity v's the rest of his range.
Ignoring the stack in your hand posted let's assume we have a PSB left in an identical scenario. To find the BE point we can first construct a somewhat arbitrary non-nut range for villain with a mix of 3 different types of hand and calculate our average equity v's it.
QQ v's {67s, AJs, 33} A72 flop = 66.86%, K72 flop = 86.19%, KT2 flop = 88.55%, AT2flop = 72.51%
so against a random non-nut range our QQ has about 78.53% equity. If we assume we check and villain shoves 100% then we need >33.33% total hand equity to be profitable.
X = Weight of range toward {KK+, AK}
3 = Pot + villain's PSB + our PSB (total pot = 3 basically)
0.0739 = Our equity v's {KK+, AK}
0.7853 = Our equity v's non {KK+, AK}
> 1 = Our remaining stack in relation to the total pot = 3. To show a profit we need our final answer to be greater than 1 otherwise it's more profitable to fold and retain our stack of 1.
(X*3*0.0739) + {(1-X)*3*0.7853} > 1
0.2217X + (2.3559 - 2.3559X) > 1
2.1342X < 1.3559
X < 0.6353 (63.53%)
So to show a profit with QQ on an Axx, Kxx flop we would need to weight villains {KK+, AK} range to less than 63.5% assuming he shoves every hand when we check to him.
K
kanselau
Rock Star
Silver Level
Great explanation mate , thanks for taking the time to go so indepth. Alittle over my had at first glance but will study to understand it deaper.
If we are putting villain on an incredibly tight 4bet range, (KK+, AK) wouldnt it be better to just fold pre? And then if we slightly adjust his range a tad wider say (99+,AKs,AKo) then we have 56% equity against his range on say a A72 flop and cant fold on A or K flop ?
A
AlwaysPlanAhe
Rock Star
Silver Level
Well yes I have folded QQ preflop in full ring without a second's thought but there will be occasions where you're deep enough against someone who isn't nitty enough that you can fold QQ, but has a respectable enough 4bet range that he will only call a 5bet shove or 6bet with the part of that respectable 4bet range that has you crushed. Calling and checking flop opens him up to make the biggest mistake possible with his non-nut range.