$50nl Nut fl dr, flop line?

Jagsti

Jagsti

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Fairly simple hand to analyse, is my line on the flop standard or spew?

Stats on vilain 34/18/1.4 no reads.


poker stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP: $45.70
CO: $72.85
BTN: $39
SB: $54
Hero (BB): $50.55
UTG: $30.15

Pre-Flop: A
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3
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dealt to Hero (BB)
3 folds, BTN raises to $1, SB raises to $3, Hero calls $2.50, BTN calls $2

Flop: ($9) K
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4
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9
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(3 Players)
SB bets $8, Hero raises to $26.25, BTN folds, SB raises to $44.50, Hero calls $18.25
 
arkadiy

arkadiy

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Uhh, you called already....you usually don't post the results :S

But umm, losing $50 would that be awful for you? If it would be something really bad, then fold. If you feel like taking a chance, then call.

You have a 65% chance of beating random hand. 46% chance of beating QK. And only 37% chance of beating AK.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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Uhh, you called already....you usually don't post the results :S

But umm, losing $50 would that be awful for you? If it would be something really bad, then fold. If you feel like taking a chance, then call.

You have a 65% chance of beating random hand. 46% chance of beating QK. And only 37% chance of beating AK.

No I usually don't post my line here, but I was more interested to see if the line I took was simply a standard line for most TAG players or is it a donkish play. I think I know the answer, but I'm interested in any comments.
 
Steveg1976

Steveg1976

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you are asking if shoving all in on the flop with Nut Flush draw is TAG?

If you had trip kings in this position wouldn't you bet .5-.75 of the pot to make calling incorrect for a draw. So how is calling his three bet on the Flop TAG? I understand the raise on the flop maybe he folds on a bluff, I don't think stacking off here is Tight Aggressive at all. All that being said That is just my thoughts and could be completely wrong when evaluated by more experienced players.
 
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Bentheman87

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Looks to me like he has AK or better, so you're only 36% to win here unless he has KQ or KJ then you're a little worse than 50% to win. So you're really gambling here. But I don't think you made a bad play on the flop, since you would get him to fold QQ or lower.
 
Steveg1976

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Seriously? Theres $81 in the pot I'm getting 4/1 on a 2/1 shot.

A flush draw is 4/1 against. When he bet $8 into a $9 pot and you raised you were already wrong. Now you are trying to justify a bad call after a bad raise. Your question was is it TAG, no it isn't TAG.

On top of that you were out of position until the Button folded, again not TAG.
 
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Bentheman87

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"A flush draw is 4/1 against. When he bet 8 into a 9 bot and you raised you were already wrong. Now you are trying to justify a bad call after a bad raise. Your question was is it TAG, no it isn't TAG."

He's basically all in on the flop though, so he's going to see the turn and river. odds against hitting a flush for only 1 card are 4:1, for two cards like in this case it's closer to 2:1.
 
Steveg1976

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He's basically all in on the flop though, so he's going to see the turn and river. Odds against hitting a flush for only 1 card are 4:1, for two cards like in this case it's closer to 2:1.

True, but again after the Raise he almost made it impossible to fold.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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I actually thought I was all in with the 3 bet call on the flop. Didn't realise I had $3 behind. Hence the 4/1 to 2/1 quote. The aim on the flop was to r/r his cb with the fl dr, everything else after that doesn't matter coz all the money goes in regardless. Calling p/f well you seem to think this isn't a TAG play. Well your probably correct, but I have seen lots of so called TAG players post hh's were they have called pf to hit sets, 2pr's and big dr's. The aim of the post is once you have hit your draw big, how do you guys play it.

Steve you seem to have an issue with me here and thats fine... but you seem to think this villain has a set of kings here, why is the r/r on the flop a bad play? What about f/e here? Then you say I made a bad call after a bad raise. again I disagree. The odds here make that a reasonably standard call.

Dont forget pf, were looking at a min raise on the button, and a min r/r. I'm getting 2/1 without button calling and 3/1 with him calling.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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If you're going to play it this way, you need to be shoving your stack in as soon as he bets the flop to get the maximum amount of fold equity.

However, your opponent seems pretty loose, and you only have 9 clean outs (the aces may be taken). And even if you have 12 outs, you're still a dog to KQ. If you were holding QcJc, JcTc, or even 5c4c this may be a different game. However, as played, I think you're making quite a few mistakes:

1) You're (semi)bluffing a loose opponent who is likely to call, and who is indicating a lot of strength with the re-raise & the pot sized bet.
2) You don't have enough clean outs to justify stacking off.
3) You could have simply called, and the button might've tossed his money in, giving you better pot odds to draw with.

So yeah. Rough play with the drawing hand.
 
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Steveg1976

Steveg1976

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I actually thought I was all in with the 3 bet call on the flop. Didn't realise I had $3 behind. Hence the 4/1 to 2/1 quote. The aim on the flop was to r/r his cb with the fl dr, everything else after that doesn't matter coz all the money goes in regardless. Calling p/f well you seem to think this isn't a TAG play. Well your probably correct, but I have seen lots of so called TAG players post hh's were they have called pf to hit sets, 2pr's and big dr's. The aim of the post is once you have hit your draw big, how do you guys play it.

Steve you seem to have an issue with me here and thats fine... but you seem to think this villain has a set of kings here, why is the r/r on the flop a bad play? What about f/e here? Then you say I made a bad call after a bad raise. again I disagree. The odds here make that a reasonably standard call.

Dont forget pf, were looking at a min raise on the button, and a min r/r. I'm getting 2/1 without button calling and 3/1 with him calling.

I don't have an issue with you at all, I just don't think that it is a TAG play to end up all in on the Flop with a just a flush draw is all. I said I understood your reraise for the chance for a fold after that you were pot commited and getting about the right odds for your draw. I don't agree with possibly stacking off here with what is at this moment a A high hand. You don't even currently have a pair. If this was a flop were you were looking at an open ended straigh flush draw and have 15 outs, then I think you have the outs to justify the call and go all in.

I post my opinion and expect it to be discussed and not necessarily agreed with. That is after all what this forum is about. I didn't mean for you to think I was taking issue with you, I wasn't. I am by no means an expert.
 
tenbob

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Pre-flop is terrible, you simply can't cold call here, your opening yourself up to some nasty squeeze plays by the button, and if hes worth his salt thats exactly what he/she does, and leaves you OOP playing a flop if you do call.

As played i dont really mind the flop line, raising the flop as a semi-bluff commits yourself against what is very likely AK. Just fold pre-flop, you will find better spots than this.
 
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Bentheman87

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Remember Steve, he wasn't rooting for his opponent to rereraise, he was gambling to pick up the pot. He was trying to make the small blind lay down QQ or JJ or 10 10 or KJ or KQ, since he had a deepstack he did have a lot of fold equity. So basically he was bluffing with an out, in other words semibluffing. So he was probably thinking half the time the small blind will fold and he'll pick up a decent sized pot and half the time his semibluff won't work (he won't get the small blind to fold) but he'll still be around 40-50% to win.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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Just to clear up the TAG statement i made. My op is about the line I made on the flop. Im asking would a TAG type player play it the same way. Forget pf, I know most fold this pf all day. Thanks for all who replied.

I usually play this type of hand i/p and when im open raising. I will then play this super aggro when I hit the flop. This was a little different, I'm oop and I seem to be up against 2 weak players, due to the min raise/min r/r, call pf.

Appreciate the feedback.
 
tenbob

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The thing is for a semi bluff to be a total success you need a good chance that your opponents will fold, its the combination of the outs you have and the FE that makes the play profitable. If you know with a good degree of certaintly that your opponents will call it makes the play unprofitable. These spots are better suited to set mining against players that you know will call, its a boring type of game, but really you should be making these sort of plays agaisnst stronger players, strange as it may seem.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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you should be making these sort of plays against stronger players, strange as it may seem.
I thought it was common knowledge that you don't bluff weaker players? You pick the guy who actually has a chance to lay down top pair, weak kicker to bluff. Newbies just see top pair in their hands, call whatever bets you make, and take your $ when you bluff.

Semi bluff against the 15/8/2.5 TAG's, rather than the good players.
 
ChuckTs

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Calling pre-flop is spewing.

Agreed - I think this is the biggest mistake in the hand.

As played pf, taking this line postflop is fine. I'm not doing this every time since we'll get looked up by any king here and possibly even an underpair, but I think it's fine as an occasional thing.

Also agree that we should be bluffing this flop more frequently against players who we have more FE against and that may even fold AK/QK here rather than bad lags who will look us up light.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Damn, where's that standard fold pre flop guy when you really need him.
 
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