50nl; KK vs nit and maniac

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
The limp-shover isn't a concern of mine - he sat down a few hands ago, called my utg raise w/A8o then ch-minraised an 88T flush draw board. I stuck the rest of his <1/2 buyin in the middle, hit my jack on the turn, and he's been monkey-tilting ever since.

The limp-raiser on the other hand is a lot tighter - about 12/4/.59. I've been getting a lot of cards and have been aggressive lately, so that's also a factor as well.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed)

BB ($12.10)
UTG ($74.85)
UTG+1 ($85.15)
MP1 ($12.60)
MP2 ($49.75)
CO ($62.90)
Button ($15.90)
Hero ($107.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K
club.gif
, K
diamond.gif
.
UTG calls $0.50, 4 folds, Button calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.75, 1 fold, UTG raises to $9, Button raises to $15.9, Hero ...
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Personally I push here. Exactly one hand beats you, and I don't understand the logic behind limp-raising AA. He wants you in the pot and then wants to push you out when you raise? If he's playing AA that way he's asking to lose money. This is of course unless you or someone at the table has been raising practically every hand in which case he's expecting a raise where he can then come over the top. It's possible he has AA, but AK and QQ are both easily played this way as well. Depending on just how tight you think he's playing, if he shoves to your raise you may think about folding, but I'm not folding the second-best hand in poker to a limp-re-raise.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

Caveman Eye Surgeon
Loyaler
Joined
Mar 20, 2007
Total posts
3,769
Awards
2
Either shove or call and shove non-ace flop unless you hit a set. I think it makes more sense to shove PF but you could potentially get more value calling.
 
J

joeeagles

Guest
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Total posts
1,114
UTG's raise is $6.25; button's shove raises it another $6.40. This is important because it means action isn't dead yet for UTG, in other words if you flat call he can raise again.

This is definitely a weird situation, having KK and being up against 2 limp/reraisers. The button has a small stack, so besides the table history that you explained there is no getting away from him anyway since he has about 30 BB's. There is no way in the world KK can shy away from a 30 BB stack.

UTG is more worrisome because of both his stats and stack. You can just call and see what he does but you have to have your mind made up now if you're going to go all the way or not, because even if he has something like QQ, JJ or TT I can easily see him shoving behind you at this point, it wouldn't mean at all that he has AA. I don't think there is any way for you to pinpoint him on a hand if you just flat call.

Lets look at again from the beginning for a minute. You've been aggressive lately, and now you're sitting in the SB. The UTG player limped in, the button limped behind, and you raised. UTG now puts in a big reraise. Isolation move against an OOP player? Given the circumstances, with him having position on you, UTG's range is a bit wider for this play; not tremendously wide since he's a bit tightish, but wider than just AA or KK. Jacks, Tens and 9's are all hands that could limp from UTG. Would they 3bet a raise from one of the blinds? It's possible. I think I would, particularly with Jacks or Tens if I'm up against an aggressive player. He can put your range for raising a limped pot in the blinds as low as A9 or maybe even A8 and KQ, so all this makes his 3bet to $9, with all those hands mentioned, an automatic move.

What makes this hand really complicated to play is that if you raise you can almost no longer get away from this, because you'll be folding with terrific odds. If you raise to somewhere around $25 and UTG shoves behind you'll be getting better than 2 to 1. It'll be about $50 to call in a $116 pot. But I think the biggest thing this accomplishes is that it tells us more about his hand. He's only invested $9 so far and has another $65 left behind. Would he really shove on us with 99-QQ, given the heavy action? If he makes such a move it's going to suggest a stronger chance he has aces, because I think even QQ and AK would start to get worried, not to mention JJ or TT. So we could almost fold at that point, even getting good odds, although it's very debatable because he'd have to have aces in that spot more than 70% of the time, if not we made a mistake. So it still remains complicated.

But the biggest downside of such a play (raising again) is that you lose value against all those hands that are WB, because if we flat call the BTN shove we might get those hands to shove on us, either PF or after the flop if it comes rags. Even tight players tend to overestimate the value of PP's, especially if it's an overpair. In honesty, I think the possibility of that is so good that it outweighs the risk of running into aces.

So if we're going to put UTG on a range of AK-99+, or even AK-TT+, which are all possible hands because of how he percives us, IMO the best play here is to just flat call and hope that UTG shoves, either now or on the flop.

I'm curious to see what others think about this hand, it's a very interesting one to discuss, because you're in position where you have to balance value vs chance to escape at a cheaper price/getting outdrawn. I think there are pros and cons whichever way you go.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Nice analysis, as always, joe.

Before reading your thoughts I was going to say that UTG could be making this move with 99/TT, maybe even 88/JJ given that Chuck has been active and that he'll have position, expecting that Chuck might have A9+. But, this guy is 12/4/.59, and with that aggression I don't know that he would be able to make this move.

But, also given that Chuck has been aggressive, he might be willing to limp QQ/KK/AA hoping that someone like Chuck might raise so he can repop. Now that button has essentially minraised, you may lose UTG if you shove if he's got a weaker hand, but then you hate to call and then deal with an Ace on the flop. I'd shove, but I don't know if it's the best play.
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Shove. No anyalisis needed. Cooler otherwise........... What did you run into AA and you want some pity. Did you foold and see AA. Just shove all day.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
I realize I can't fold after his limp-raise, but if we 5-bet and he comes over the top, how deep do we have to be before we start folding KK to nits like this?
 
J

joeeagles

Guest
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Total posts
1,114
No anyalisis needed.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: .

Lol, posts with comments like this make me want to stay away from HA. Excluding only tenbob's threads (which I already carefully do :p ) might not be enough.

I find it always very illuminating, and somewhat amusing, when someone tells you "shove, no analysis needed". That's the whole purpose of a forum, just throw out a one liner and shit all over everything else, right tenbob? ;) . Great post, keep it up :eek: . I'll be looking forward to your next one :rolleyes: .

Oh, and apologies if my previous post was out of line, you know, the one with the whole "not needed analysis", or maybe overanalysis and whatnot. Next time I'll just post a one liner where I suggest the next move and not bother to explain why, just like you did. That's why we're here, right? ;)
 
Munchrs

Munchrs

Legend
Joined
May 25, 2007
Total posts
1,935
i think if UTG has aces he will 4 bet here. I say call $15 then fold if UTG 4 bets.

Because realisticly he has either AA or QQ maybe KK also but unlikely. He is so tight that i would just avoid any pot with him unless you are the agressor and have a great hand.

Wait!!! KK is a great hand- Key factor here he limp raised you which means he also has a great hand and wanted you to raise so he could get more value because everyone folds if he open raises as he is tight and you would know he had a great hand, so in his case a limp raise adds value to his AA and alot of players will not fold to someone coming over the top of them with hands like AQ or AK which gives UTG massive advantage.

either fold or call/fold to 4 bet.

Ask yourself are you prepared to looset $75 with KK when two players have re-raised and 3 bet your raise, one of which is a very tight player??
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Shove. No anyalisis needed. Cooler otherwise........... What did you run into AA and you want some pity. Did you foold and see AA. Just shove all day.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: .

Lol, posts with comments like this make me want to stay away from HA. Excluding only tenbob's threads (which I already carefully do :p ) might not be enough.

I find it always very illuminating, and somewhat amusing, when someone tells you "shove, no analysis needed". That's the whole purpose of a forum, just throw out a one liner and shit all over everything else, right tenbob? ;) . Great post, keep it up :eek: . I'll be looking forward to your next one :rolleyes: .

Oh, and apologies if my previous post was out of line, you know, the one with the whole "not needed analysis", or maybe overanalysis and whatnot. Next time I'll just post a one liner where I suggest the next move and not bother to explain why, just like you did. That's why we're here, right? ;)

Heh, thats what being pissed does to you :)
 
S

switch0723

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Total posts
8,430
I re shove this all in now. The button is no worry he is a shortstack who at best is p****d and has a rag ace. But UTG seems like the type of player who wouldnt limp with aces, who would raise it. Although i dont think utg will call the re raise so we are risking value, i think the value from having the button all in is enough with some dead money out there. If we are called and it is a rare rare situation we are up against aces, we're still 20% to win all that money. And even if worse comes to worse and we lose, we will only be down 17$ from the initial buy in so i think its worse pushing all in
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Heh, thats what being pissed does to you :)

lol i figured...

fwiw I did end up getting my money in (in a weird way; i repopped small, he called, i shoved a rag flop, he called with AA. Villain two showed down A4o) but remember we were talking about this on msn and how you wouldn't stack KK 200bb deep without a good read? Well at what point do we start stacking again?
 
J

joeeagles

Guest
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Total posts
1,114
Heh, thats what being pissed does to you :)

Would you mind explaining this? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Not sure if you're just drunk or being the usual smartass, or maybe a mix of both....Oh wait....you can't answer since.......there is nothing to explain :p :) .

I have no clue what you're talking about tenbob, so speak up cause I might learn something (I doubt it though). My post was pretty self-explanatory, your reply isn't, although curiously it appears to be so for Chuck and perhaps others. It sounds like I'll get a good laugh out of this :D .
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Im not explaining myself you you Joe. If you want to insult me, and or have a problem with me take it to PM.
 
J

joeeagles

Guest
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Total posts
1,114
If you want to insult me, and or have a problem with me take it to PM.

Funny since I should be the one saying that.

But it's ok, at this point I'm done so I'm not really interested.
 
Top