50nl FR top pair with action preflop

[zachvac]

pokerstars GAME #16167590731: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/03/22 - 14:26:22 (ET)
Table 'Basilea' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Morney87 ($44.40 in chips)
Seat 2: Schoebo ($37.95 in chips)
Seat 3: mazzminime ($38.70 in chips)
Seat 4: O'DoyleRules ($28.75 in chips)
Seat 5: curtisjames7 ($26.90 in chips)
Seat 6: zachvac ($66.45 in chips)
Seat 7: Auflauf ($90.35 in chips)
Seat 8: Cynicism328 ($47.50 in chips)
Seat 9: resonator_21 ($17.50 in chips)
resonator_21: posts small blind $0.25
Morney87: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to zachvac [Qd As]
Schoebo: folds
mazzminime: raises $1.50 to $2
O'DoyleRules: folds
curtisjames7: folds
zachvac: raises $3 to $5
Auflauf: folds
Cynicism328: folds
resonator_21: folds
Morney87: folds
mazzminime: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [7d 7h Qc]
mazzminime: checks
zachvac: bets $5
mazzminime: raises $5 to $10
zachvac: ???

villain is 23/10/infinite, but only over ~30 hands.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

villain is 10/23/infinite, but only over ~30 hands.

i think your pahud is broke (or is he 23/10/inf?)

repop to at least $6 pre, but either way given villain's shortish stack i'm pretty happy to stack off here - this could easily be a bluff or KQ/QJ/JJ-88. I guess an overly trickily played AA/KK is possible, 77 is possible but statistically unlikely too but we're way ahead of villain's range. villain could be mixing it up in EP with 87s/76s and might have felt priced in by your small raise, but again this is unlikely.

the real question here is whether we call the flop and gain value from a potential (but unlikely) turn bluffshove or shove the flop and gain value from the portion of his range which calls a flop shove but may check-fold should the turn be scary. i think we shove now.

 

[zachvac]

oh, guess I did these backwards in all 3 then. I don't have my PAHUD set up with just those 3 stats, so I don't have them in the typical order, wasn't sure whether VP$IP went first or PFR, just took a guess, and apparently I was wrong

 

[iMaGiN.]

It looks like he's just trying to bluff the flop right now, and get the hand over with quickly as he's probably sitting on a monster like Big Slick or A Q. The only hand that can beat you right now is Pocket kings or aces, but the chance of that is very unlikely. I would raise to $20-$25 and see what happens.

 

[zachvac]

It looks like he's just trying to bluff the flop right now, and get the hand over with quickly as he's probably sitting on a monster like Big Slick or A Q. The only hand that can beat you right now is Pocket kings or aces, but the chance of that is very unlikely. I would raise to $20-$25 and see what happens.

Well a 7 has me, but that's also unlikely, especially given the preflop action. The question is, what do I beat here besides a flat out bluff? Am I wiling to play for stacks when he has me beat and just take his raise when he's bluffing?

 

[iMaGiN.]

I would hate to play for stacks in this position if he chooses to re-raise all in after your raise to $20-$25...Your best bet is to quickly remember the hands he played. Is he the type of guy to call $5 pre-flop with A/7? Also, is he the type of guy that can lay his hand down after he gets reraised and is probably beat or will he flat out call and try to take a stab at the pot. That's up to you to decide as you have been playing with him for however long.

 

[iMaGiN.]

The only thing you wouldn't beat is Kings and Aces, (excluding the sevens). And even if he was holding those in his hands, it would be very unlikely that he would slow play them, especially Kings since he would be risking the fact that you have an ace, which you do and might flop it. If he had Kings or Aces, he would definitely go over the top of your $5 raise.

 

[ChuckTs]

Check flop for pot control. There are no draws and the only card you're afraid of is a king.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

I don't think we should be looking to control the pot here - we should be looking to get our (his) stack in because (a) we're crushing his range and (b) as he's quite short we may well be able to get his stack in with many hands that we beat.

You're right - the only card we're afraid of is a K, but what about the cards villain is afraid of? Let's say he's sitting on 99 - any A,K,J, maybe T is scary for him and may well lead to you losing value.

Let's say villain is sitting on AK - is he really going to throw chips at the pot unimproved after we've reraised pf and checked on a paired flop? I don't see why we shouldn't be betting and looking to play for stacks here.

 

[vanquish]

raise preflop to $6+, stack off flop

 

[zachvac]

ok well I flat called here, figuring if he fires a huge bet on the turn I can be pretty safe in knowing I'm beat. Well low and behold the turn brings a Q. I'm lucky though because villain shoved the turn, I obviously called with the 2nd nuts and he had JJ.

But do I really play this for stacks on a flop like this? I'm not stacking QQ very often preflop, why would I stack a hand that is beaten by AA, KK plus more hands? The reason I was scared here was because of that board and villain not seeming worried at all. I figured either he was a donk and had a 7 or else he had played AA or KK and wasn't worried about me having the 7 (and he'd just have to deal with the times I had QQ there). Obviously getting my stack in was the good play against this opponent, but in general is it really good to stack with TPTK with that kind of action? As mentioned, I'm really only worried about AA/KK, but if I won't stack QQ preflop why would I stack postflop when I'm only worried about the 2 hands?

 

[iMaGiN.]

Unless you can see the player player an A 7, I would most likely play this for stacks on a flop as this because he only has then 2 cards that can dominate you and your chances of him having those are like 1-2%.

 

[Effexor]

I'd play the hand the same way you did. Control the pot size as best you can and try and get a showdown relatively cheaply. Granted with 23 vpip there are a lot of hands like KQ, maybe even QJ / smaller PP than QQ that are within his range, but generally speaking I don't like to go broke with just top pair.

 

[zachvac]

I'd play the hand the same way you did. Control the pot size as best you can and try and get a showdown relatively cheaply. Granted with 23 vpip there are a lot of hands like KQ, maybe even QJ / smaller PP than QQ that are within his range, but generally speaking I don't like to go broke with just top pair.

I got lucky though. If I don't hit that 2nd queen he still probably pushes all-in, and then I'd have folded most likely.

 

[zachvac]

Unless you can see the player player an A 7, I would most likely play this for stacks on a flop as this because he only has then 2 cards that can dominate you and your chances of him having those are like 1-2%.

I am afraid of AA/KK, I'm sorry but I think the odds of him having those hands is far higher than 1-2%. We had a good amount of action preflop, and him not being afraid of the Q, I'd say AA/KK is a large part of his range.

 

[vanquish]

yeah but controlling the pot on the flop isnt gonna prevent him from getting it in on later streets and get you to showdown cheap

 

[ChuckTs]

Getting it in over 3 streets >>> getting it in on the flop here.

By checking we induce action from the smaller pairs and worse queens. We probably get it in anyways against the better hands by the time the river comes, but we get all the worse ones to tag along too.

 

[DonGoiano]

hand

nh

 

[jewboy07]

I got lucky though. If I don't hit that 2nd queen he still probably pushes all-in, and then I'd have folded most likely.

maybe this is the reason to get it in on the flop because more than likely you arent going to improve and on the flop you're ahead of most hands oppenent could be holding


ive seen plenty of players play QJ this and with the smallish PF raise he could feel priced and call

 

[zachvac]

Getting it in over 3 streets >>> getting it in on the flop here.

By checking we induce action from the smaller pairs and worse queens. We probably get it in anyways against the better hands by the time the river comes, but we get all the worse ones to tag along too.

But do you really think it's a good idea to get it all in (without the 2nd queen obviously) here? Do I want to be playing for stacks in this hand? As mentioned, I'm really only worried about AA/KK (and I guess QQ, but as there are only 2 left this is mathematically an extremely small part of his range), but I wouldn't stack preflop with QQ, why would I stack here when he shows strength by calling my 3-bet preflop and doesn't slow down at all on this board? What makes me think that he has less than AA/KK enough to profitably stack here?

 

[vanquish]

if you dont want to be playing for stacks with AQ on Q77r, dont 3bet preflop

 

[ChuckTs]

But do you really think it's a good idea to get it all in (without the 2nd queen obviously) here? Do I want to be playing for stacks in this hand? As mentioned, I'm really only worried about AA/KK (and I guess QQ, but as there are only 2 left this is mathematically an extremely small part of his range), but I wouldn't stack preflop with QQ, why would I stack here when he shows strength by calling my 3-bet preflop and doesn't slow down at all on this board? What makes me think that he has less than AA/KK enough to profitably stack here?

Well the plan isn't to play for stacks, but after the 3-bet it's basically inevitable whether we play for pot control or we bet the flop.

Our goal isn't to stack, but considering how you played pf (which I don't like) we have to play a big-ish pot now. Our goal at this point, as played, is to induce action from 99/AK etc. I agree we're not in great shape against his range, but considering how the hand has layed itself out I think we have to play a big pot now.

Vanq says it best:

if you dont want to be playing for stacks with AQ on Q77r, dont 3bet preflop

 

[zachvac]

Well the plan isn't to play for stacks, but after the 3-bet it's basically inevitable whether we play for pot control or we bet the flop.

Our goal isn't to stack, but considering how you played pf (which I don't like) we have to play a big-ish pot now. Our goal at this point, as played, is to induce action from 99/AK etc. I agree we're not in great shape against his range, but considering how the hand has layed itself out I think we have to play a big pot now.

Vanq says it best:

ok same question, we have QQ, we 3-bet preflop, he 4-bets enough to basically commit us if we call (so that we either shove or fold and he's 99.9% of the time calling our shove), I fold there most of the time, would you call this?

Or a more similar situation, QQ, we 3-bet preflop, get a flat call, rag board, we lead out and get re-raised. Do we play for stacks here?

 

[zachvac]

considering how you played pf (which I don't like)

What don't you like preflop? Would you like more of a flat call? A bigger raise? The point behind the 3-bet preflop with hands like AK and AQ are first off much of the time it will fold out hands we're flipping, basically all pocket pairs up to TT and possibly even JJ although that depends on opponent. Secondly we get AK-AT (and once in a while KQ/QJ/KJ) flat calling. Most of the time we both brick the flop and this type of hand will fold to a cbet. If my cbet gets called or raised I give up on the hand unless I hit the A or Q, in which case I have to look at the scenario, opponent, how likely he is to do this with a hand I beat, etc. Most of the time I 3-bet AK/AQ preflop I am not looking to reach showdown. Now if I'm playing a player who will call/bet with a wide range of hands, I may play for value if I hit TPTK, and I guess the infinite aggression (although only over 30 hands) leads to this guy in particular doing this with a lot of hands, but against your average player with that much action preflop I don't really want to be playing for stacks with just TPTK with all that preflop action. Do you think this is too weak? Should I be looking to get my stack in with that preflop action when I hit TPTK more?