50nl; AQ for TP vs aggressive regular

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Villain is 16/9/4 and I'm ~15/8/3. I've been playing a little aggressive lately, recently taking down a big multiway limped pot by raising to $5 from the blinds.

What's our line here? We're wa/wb again but being out of position = balls.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed)

MP3 ($47)
CO ($112.35)
Button ($113.40)
Hero ($79.35)
BB ($17.65)
UTG ($44)
UTG+1 ($29.65)
MP1 ($5.75)
MP2 ($29.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q
club.gif
, A
spade.gif
.
5 folds, CO raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, CO calls $4.

Flop: ($12.50) 8
club.gif
, 2
heart.gif
, A
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero ...
 
R

red_dawn_28

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villian’s raise could have been to just steal the blinds but he called your reraise so what is his range? 22-TT, and possibly KQ+? by reraising UTG you are repping a strong hand. you need to C-bet this flop because you hit it, an A is definitely in your range and even if he has KK the A has to scare him. if he calls you then I think you try to get to the river cheaply. if he bets big on the river with air then it’s a great play and tough to call – unfortunately this is the problem with playing OOP.

You are praying he has a smaller pocket, but keep in mind that you are not going to make any money on this hand if that is the case. Villian is not going to commit a good chunk of his stack even with KK with the ace out there. The most you could hope for is a pot sized bluff bet on the river (which could very well happen after you show weakness by checking the turn and river).
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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villian’s raise could have been to just steal the blinds but he called your reraise so what is his range? 22-TT, and possibly KQ+? ... if he has KK the A has to scare him.

Ok, contradictory range setting, but I agree with your disagreement :), villain's range is actually very large and KK is definately in it imo, as you are both deep and he can easily be disguising his strength. Normally I'd say you're in deep trouble as given his stats I can't see a call here with anything as weak as AJ, but seeing as you just made a raise off the blinds this definately comes into play - basically meaning his range is wide open.

Obviously you have 2 options, check or bet. A check and you get no info, a bet and whatever his action is I'm scared (apart from a fold :eek:). As an aggrillian, I really can't see a hand he's going to flat call with apart from perhaps a set, as he can't be worried about a fd since we would have had to have RRed pf with KJc at best. Most likely we'll get raised by AK,AQ and even AJ, maybe even 99-KK if he reads us as c-betting KQ/high pp, making it extremely hard to continue with the hand and we probably have to chuck it knowing it could be the best hand. For this reason I think a c/r (appearing stronger than a pos. c-bet) or c/c (pot control/re-evaluate turn) line is more appropriate. If he checks behind he either reads us for strength after not c-betting or is particularly strong himself, so we precede with caution regardless of which and keep the pot small imo.

But really imo this action reaks of a split pot.
 
J

jeffred1111

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Against someone who has these stats, I'm even thinking about folding this preflop (but who does) since we have 38% equity against his very tight range of TT+, AJs+,AQo+, KQs. Plus, we basically need to flop 2-pairs or better to look good, are never flopping a flush and our Q can be counterfeited flushwise by his A or K. The thing that makes calling is reraise right is:
a) If he defends his button with a wider range than his UTG opening range
b) If he perceives you as stealing and is doing this with air.

We would be in the very same shape if we raised with 99 and got reraised...

Anyway, this hand is totally standard: check, let him bet his whole range (wich has very little FD due to the ACE being clubs, so we are not worried about giving a free card) and call: if he has underpair, well, he wasn't calling all three streets anyway, so we are losing no value by giving up the betting. I'm calling this down unless something screwy happens. Betting here, IMHO, is asking to get valueowned since he cn have better than you, you build the pot, and you are opening yourself to gettinr bluff-raised.

C/C might invite two barrels and let's you get there cheaply.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Against someone who has these stats, I'm even thinking about folding this preflop (but who does) since we have 38% equity against his very tight range of TT+, AJs+,AQo+, KQs.

True, but his ranges varied from ep to lp, and he'd been making squeezes and positional steals all day - which I should have noted in the OP. My 3-bet is still marginal though, esp out of position, good eye. I was running really good on this table and maybe got a little winner's tilt.

C/C might invite two barrels and let's you get there cheaply.

Agreed.
 
J

jeffred1111

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What the... I though you were in the CO and got reraised by the blinds (and then magically got to act first????).... Disregard everything I said about air and him defending (also his range). This tight player with these stats has a wide range here and it includes SC, high cards and maybe even the Omaha hand chart: he is agressive and steals in position so we can't give him that much credit.

Repop it or fold, with emphasis on fold IMHO: this isn't a tournament and defending is less important. But if you want to make a stand, this is as good a hand to do so before you go into valueraise territory (TT+, AKo, AKs).
 
Bombjack

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... bets because he would always c-bet this flop with any 2. If CO floats, I prolly check-raise the turn.
 
J

joeeagles

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... bets because he would always c-bet this flop with any 2. If CO floats, I prolly check-raise the turn.

C/R the turn means you're ready to play a huge pot. If he floats the flop and bets the turn after getting checked into, it could be a plain steal attempt, but if he has a hand better then ours he can really hurt us because check/raising is going to make this pot real big, close to the point where we're committed. As it stands its already $13, and if we c-bet $7.50 and he calls it's $28 and we have $66 behind.

Hero started this hand with ~160 BB's and villain has more than that. I agree that we're crushing his range but going for stacks with only top pair is dangerous, and check/raising the turn means taking that avenue. If he calls the flop c-bet I'd just check the turn even if there is a flush draw on the board, then reevaluate based on his action. I doubt I'd fold any non outrageous turn bet against this player, but if he fires big on the river I'd have to seriously consider it unless we improve, and our chances for that aren't too good.

The possible downside of playing the hand this way is that he might interpret our whole line as a big PP (JJ+) and thinks we're scared of the A. This might incourage him to bluff with a huge bet, close to a pot size one, if he has a medium PP or something like 98s, which is in his range. A $24 bet on the turn would put us in tough spot since we'd have another $42 left behind. The upside is that, for the same reason, if he has a weaker A (AJ, AT) he'll likely value bet us ($8-$10) on the turn and maybe even on the river when checked into and he'll give us a decent pot.

There is the option of betting the turn, maybe somewhere like $10, but if he raises it we have to fold at that point. Although it could still be a bluff, most times it's going to mean we really are behind. The biggest problem arises if he flat calls. Pot would now be $48, we'd have $56 behind and absolutely no clue of where we're at.

Continuing this hand superaggressively with big check/raises is usually a bad idea, because if he gives you that kind of action it means you're beat and it's going to cost you a lot, possibly your whole stack. I wouldn't do it. The alternative might take us to folding the best hand, but sometimes that's what you get for 3betting AQo OOP :) .
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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... bets because he would always c-bet this flop with any 2.

I'm slowing down here with a lot of hands actually. Smaller pairs I'm probably 50/50 between playing it standard wa/wb or betting out depending on how comfortable I am OOP. I'm also slowing down with AQ and even AK since it's pretty much wa/wb as well.

If CO floats, I prolly check-raise the turn.

Why? I have to agree with joe here - we want to keep this pot small. We're either crushed by ak/aa/88 or are crushing 99-KK. We're not getting action from anything we beat so why bother ch-raising?
 
J

jeffred1111

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Textbook smallball/let him bluff hand. C/r turn could be good if you knew he was more likely to check turn and induce a bet from you on the river (in the hopes of raising) if he checked behind, but this is very read dependant.

Against someone who is just described as an agressive regular, calling down doesn't make us lose much value from hands we crush while we lose the control of the pot if we bloat it (and we don't get to SD). Only thing that sucks is if he doesn't two barrell: we must bet any river and probably fold to a raise.

Our hand, at this point, looks exactly like KcQc and we should not try to change this (altough I doubt you reraise with KQs, but we don't know if he knows this).

Only scenario when I c/r a good % of the time is when I turn two pairs for protection/value.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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C/r turn could be good if you knew he was more likely to check turn and induce a bet from you on the river (in the hopes of raising) if he checked behind, but this is very read dependant.

Elaborate please? I'm not sure what you mean here.

I know I've been spouting wa/wb for the last while, but I think this is another classic spot for it. Being oop sucks but I don't see villain 3-barrelling TT-KK or even AK (actually, he might here), so I can safely call two streets down and fold to a river bet.

calling down doesn't make us lose much value from hands we crush

au contraire mon frere. We gain value from those hands we crush, esp because villain is aggressive. He might see our flop check as KK weakness and try to push us off it with TT or whatever.
 
J

jeffred1111

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Elaborate please? I'm not sure what you mean here.

I know I've been spouting wa/wb for the last while, but I think this is another classic spot for it. Being oop sucks but I don't see villain 3-barrelling TT-KK or even AK (actually, he might here), so I can safely call two streets down and fold to a river bet.

If you know that opponent is rarely betting the immortal nuts or the near nuts on this turn after you called down on the flop in order to show weakness and hope you bet your second best hand by the river, c/r might be the best option since he is more likely to be betting with a worse hand than yours than a better one. This is especially true of people who are starting to develop FPS or trying to outhink their opponent. It's not a good play IMHO since no hand is strong enough for a slowplay here with the FD, but sometimes people are willing to gamble to increase EV in a smallish pot on the turn.

For example, if villain checked behind on the turn and no club go off, wouldn't you valuebet ? You would, always, and thus you open yourself up for a raise wich can be a bluff-raise a lot, especially if villain is aware of his tight/agressive image, so if you know that he is aware you are aware, you're most likely to call than fold. He gets more value by underepping his hand and we get valueowned by the river.

DUCY ? Doesn't apply to this hand much though so c/r is rarely good IMHO.

au contraire mon frere. We gain value from those hands we crush, esp because villain is aggressive. He might see our flop check as KK weakness and try to push us off it with TT or whatever.

This is exactly what I am saying ! By c/c, we invite two barrelling and keep the pot smallish, two crucial components in this hand.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I'm fine with the checking to induce a bluff and to save money vs a slowplayed monster, but why would we be raising? That's what I meant to say in my last post. Raising will get nothing but action from monsters and push out the worse hands, so I much prefer a ch-c.
 
J

jeffred1111

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I never said to raise. The only situation it is better to raise is if you knew that he would bet worse than he would check behind, wich, in your situation, is not the case (ie. you don't have this read).
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Fair enough; I misread your point about when to use c/raising as a case to do it here.

Any more opinions or do you guys want results now? I think everything's been said here...
 
Four Dogs

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Fire two 1/2 pot bets. If he calls them both check call the river.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Fire two 1/2 pot bets. If he calls them both check call the river.

YARG one-liner responses. Please elaborate; saying 'do this' without giving reason is kind of pointless.

Why fire out two bets?

......we want results please......:) .

sir yes sir! :)


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed)

MP3 ($47)
CO ($112.35)
Button ($113.40)
Hero ($79.35)
BB ($17.65)
UTG ($44)
UTG+1 ($29.65)
MP1 ($5.75)
MP2 ($29.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q
club.gif
, A
spade.gif
.
5 folds, CO raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, CO calls $4.

Flop: ($12.50) 8
club.gif
, 2
heart.gif
, A
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $7.5, Hero calls $7.50.

Turn: ($27.50) 7
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $18, Hero calls $18.

River: ($63.50) Q
heart.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: $63.50

Went for a ch-r on the river though I much prefer a bet, but meh. He showed down JJ.

pantin, dj and others: do you see why playing wa/wb spots like this passively is a good idea now?
 
J

jeffred1111

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I'm betting this river Chuck since it is an action killer for a lot of hands that might have fired another bet (smaller PP, smaller Aces, etc.) We basically have the immortal nuts considering the action and a worse hand is not betting this, while it might call.

Put yourself on villain shoes, wouldn't you check behind on this river with AJ ? Make him pay to SD, call any screwy stuff.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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YARG one-liner responses. Please elaborate; saying 'do this' without giving reason is kind of pointless.

Why fire out two bets?



sir yes sir! :)
lol. Sorry Chuck, it was late I was tired.
Obv. his range is huge, and obv. we think we're ahead, but some degree of caution is still advisable.

I generally don't try to get too fancy in these situations. In most cases a 1/2 pot bet gets the value and information I want out of a med strong hand while keeping the pot small enough to fire off another meaningful raise on the turn should he peel one. For each 1/2 pot bet a normal drawing hand is getting only 3:1 odds to call, not enough. If it is a draw, I do want him to call but I don't want to give one away.

If he chooses to call both bets, I see no reason to lead out on the river. I'll still call, but unless i've improved I want to keep the pot small.

Gotta go.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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You're not often going to get villains that play this badly, that's all I'll say...
 
J

joeeagles

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I'm betting this river Chuck since it is an action killer for a lot of hands that might have fired another bet (smaller PP, smaller Aces, etc.) We basically have the immortal nuts considering the action and a worse hand is not betting this, while it might call.

Put yourself on villain shoes, wouldn't you check behind on this river with AJ ? Make him pay to SD, call any screwy stuff.

I agree that betting is the better play, but since he fired again on the turn ($18), I might go for a check/raise also. In most cases JJ wouldn't bet again on the turn so it kind of makes it hard to put him on this hand, I'd have big hopes he has AK and I outdrawed him. The passive way Chuck played this from the flop on could look like a PP and if villain does have AK, and his turn bet is trying to represent it, I'd still expect him to bet the river even if the Q showed up. Chuck 3bet this hand PF from OOP so villain can hardly include AQ in his range, meaning that the only way the Q could have helped Chuck is if he has QQ. The way the hand played out I'd think AK would fire again on the river, making the check/raise a good strategy and likely the one that gets you more value.

Seeing that its JJ I'm not too sure he'd call a river bet anyway, although I'm not trying to make an excuse for not betting. There are solid reasons for leading out on the river, which Jeff already made and you can't really argue them (value from weaker aces, smaller PP's, etc).

But overall, I think Chuck played this hand very well.
 
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