$50 NLHE 6-max: $50 NLHE : Im a spewtard, make him fold everything OTR?

[Ducky7]

Flatting pre is ok so, but still a 3bet isnt the worst play either..

It was just the 'tone' in your post when you said you should never have bluffs in your range on the river because ive played solid for 14 hands while at the table, which made me lol, thats all...

I think youll find that raising the flop from what ive said already is far from terrible.
Also theres not many if none that are 3 betting this flop with worse than JJ, unless you can think of any?


Tbh, there seems to be a lot of nooby posts being said by somewhat respected players, which I find it hard to understand... But maybe its just me, but I doubt it..

Ye you were right, and I didnt mean based on how id play for 14 hands ha, i was just giving info at how i'd played at the table lol. I meant i shouldnt have many hands that i turn into a bluff OTR

And ye i think i prefer raising the flop when i thought about it, i was abit tired/tilted at the time, but when i woke up this morning i saw this hand i was like wow is this actually me lol.

 

[youregoodmate]

Our point is hes 3 betting us on the flop with nearly all his range. So now you have to fold out a hand that you have a decent amount of equity with.

If you cant understand that then we should agree to disagree.

 

[hackmeplz]

Explain how doing anything other than calling both flop/turn is a significant leak??

Sure. He cbets 3 ways here on a QT9 flop which is a flop that generally hits hands that see flops pretty hard. Almost anyone is going to have at least a pair or a draw or some combination of the two. Also to win the pot you'll have to make both players fold. So generally a cbet on this board is going to be super strong. So now we give him a range of some sets some overpairs some Qx some Jx (but QJ/KJ is a decent amount of his Jx and those crush us) maybe some bottom pair bluffs, 78-type stuff, etc. Maybe he can have stuff like AK that has gutter+overs and then of course you have to give him some amount of no pair no draw "I'm tilted and I want to win the pot" bluffs. Raising here gets most of the stuff that crushes us to call or raise. We might be able to get AQ or AA to fold just because we look so strong but remember not only do we have to avoid the first guy having it we also have to avoid a 2nd guy having any of those hands. Obviously the 2nd guy's range is weaker but he's freerolling having any of those hands. We have to get both people to fold when one of the guys has a pretty strong range and in general I don't think it's going to be profitable and it will be a pretty big leak.

Now onto the turn. We just called the flop so his range is significantly stronger than ours. He can have just about every strong hand and while we can have a straight and maybe even some slowplayed sets with a guy behind us, in general we're perceived to have a not very strong range given that there are a lot of scare cards that could have come. So now he bets again he's probably not betting any of his pure airballs so he has a super strong range actually and will not be folding hardly any of them because we look super fos if we raise. On the other hand we have 8 outs, he can still have a few Jx hands we beat, and I think with our equity and odds we can still profitably call.

let me know if you want me to elaborate on something or explain it more clearly hopefully this was clear.

 

[JCgrind]

hmm, well heres how i see it

Well I just put 2 and 2 together, and said you made a reference to it, which you do, thats all....lol

So if we min raise turn and not raise flop we get to showdown cheaper? I dont think so!!
Raising flop outweighs raising turn if we want to get to s/d cheaper.

Lets say we raise flop to $8,
He 3 bets- easy fold. us raising flop obv has next to no FE, and if he 3bs we dont get to SD. range villain 3bs OTF > range villain 3bs OTT
He flats- whether we make our straight our not on turn, the turn will go c/c..Or at least it should as we are being perceived weak(which will give him a chance to bluff rivers as youve said hes agg, but in fact hes prob only agg pre) and also the amount of times villain will have KJ we can just call river bets, (minimizing our losses with the worse straight.)

Now if we call flop and min raise turn as youve suggested, we raise turn to $15..
If he 3 bets- we have to fold.
If he flats- the river will go c/c by all his 2 pair hands that we now beat.
But he will donk if not 3 bet the turn will all his houses and presuming trips(on river,which would be an easy b/f situation), in which we all fold to.

So by raising flop we 'lose' $8,
by raising turn we 'lose' $18.50
As played we 'lose' $11, if we dont count the spew shove and just c/c,fold rivers...

So unless you dont like money, then raising flop to get to showdown, is cheaper than raising turn...

if we raise flop and he 3bs, we wont get to SD
if we flat flop then minraise turn, there is only 1 hand he can shove and thats KJ. presuming he flats, he will almost never donk river (since the only hand that makes sense to donk river with if it bricks is KJ, and thats obv being raised OTT)
this gets us to SD for $15 postflop

if we raise flop to suggested $8, the incredibly vast majority of the time he raises or flats, and almost never folds.
turn always goes ch/ch
pot OTR is $21.50 and like 75% of his value range (2ps, overpairs, sets) obviously leads big, with KQ/AQ probably being the only hands he c/c's.
If he somehow has a hand like AK/Jx, these are bluffing river too.

i dunno, im pretty sure were facing a river bet that often if we only raise flop that it becomes more expensive.

but again, i feel the need to say that raising at any point isnt my prefered line. call flop, fold turn wins hands down IMO