$5 NLHE Full Ring: Shoving OESD with Top pair & backdoor flush draw

[fx20736]

$5 NL HE Full Ring: Shoving OESD with Top pair & backdoor flush draw

I thought I was doing the right thing here:
Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com
LP: $7.25
CO: $4.78
BTN: $13.13
Hero (SB): $4.36
BB: $2.76
UTG: $1.80
UTG+1: $12.30
MP: $5.31
MP+1: $5.44
Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has 9s Js
fold, fold, fold, MP+1 calls $0.05, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.30, Hero raises to $1.00, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.70
Flop: ($2.10, 2 players) 8c Ts Jd
Hero bets $3.36 and is all-in, BTN calls $3.36
Turn: ($8.82, 2 players) 3d
River: ($8.82, 2 players) 8s
BTN shows Kc Kd (Two Pair, Kings and Eights)
Hero shows 9s Js (Two Pair, Jacks and Eights)
BTN wins $8.24


I must be insane; another hand same scenario same result

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com
UTG+1: $6.98
MP: $6.97
MP+1: $15.79
Hero (LP): $7.01
CO: $1.41
BTN: $0.94
SB: $5.00
BB: $5.00
UTG: $5.44
SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has 8c 9d
fold, UTG+1 calls $0.05, fold, MP+1 calls $0.05, Hero calls $0.05, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to $0.50, fold, MP+1 calls $0.45, Hero calls $0.45
Flop: ($1.57, 3 players) 9s Ts Tc
BB bets $1.00, MP+1 calls $1.00, Hero calls $1.00
Turn: ($4.57, 3 players) Jc
BB checks, MP+1 bets $4.57, Hero raises to $5.51 and is all-in, fold, MP+1 calls $0.94
River: ($15.59, 2 players) Qc
MP+1 shows 7c Ac (Flush, Ace High)
Hero shows 8c 9d (Straight, Queen High)
MP+1 wins $14.56

 

[wrung24]

1st hand : I think that at the bottom stakes (2 and 5NL) you should only be 3-betting for value, what made you think you were ahead with J9s ? He would have to be a really loose raiser (not even open, he raised a limper) for you to justify that play. The fact that he flat called might be a bit disturbing, it looks like he wants to see a flop before putting his money in (maybe a rigtard that can just see the ace coming).

Overbetting the flop with TPWK is just wrong IMO even though you have an openender. I'm having trouble thinking of a hand that is going to call you that you can beat (unless he is a big fish in which case J4 and that sort, and even then).

 

[fx20736]

1st hand : I think that at the bottom stakes (2 and 5NL) you should only be 3-betting for value, what made you think you were ahead with J9s ? He would have to be a really loose raiser (not even open, he raised a limper) for you to justify that play. The fact that he flat called might be a bit disturbing, it looks like he wants to see a flop before putting his money in (maybe a rigtard that can just see the ace coming).

Overbetting the flop with TPWK is just wrong IMO even though you have an openender. I'm having trouble thinking of a hand that is going to call you that you can beat (unless he is a big fish in which case J4 and that sort, and even then).

I wasn't factoring the pair into it. My thought process was: If he has a pair then my chances of winning are (lots of outs+Fold equity) . I hadn't put him on KK until after I shoved.

 

[wrung24]

What makes you think you can make this player fold ? (I mean there could be plenty of reasons but do you really have one ?) Would you fold KK to a shove in that position ? I guess you could make a case for having enough outs but it's at best very thin (at this level you should be going for FAT value, yummy fat value).

I hadn't put him on KK until after I shoved.

If you're not happy about where your game is now then I think we might have found the problem

 

[fx20736]

What makes you think you can make this player fold ? (I mean there could be plenty of reasons but do you really have one ?) Would you fold KK to a shove in that position ? I guess you could make a case for having enough outs but it's at best very thin (at this level you should be going for FAT value, yummy fat value).



If you're not happy about where your game is now then I think we might have found the problem

Actually I had just changed gears. Over 7k hands I was playing a very nitty 11/8 game, folding, folding, folding. When I entered a pot I usually just collected the blinds. When someone played back at me with 95o they'd take my stack or I'd get KK and run into AA or have AK and run into KK or have QQ and run into KK so I switched gears and started playing 24/17 and pushing my strong draws very aggressively. I was hoping for more folds but no one folds at 5NL so now I need to adjust my game.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Maybe something between 11/8 and 24/17 is in order????!!!!!

Not a huge fan of the 3bet in hand 1 preflop unless you know something about the BTN that you didn't include in your post. Postflop is actually OK imo. You can't give up after flopping that well with J9s but you really shouldn't expect to be ahead if called all that often either. It's basically always a flip against an overpair but with the dead money getting it in is way +Ev.

2nd hand is so much worse preflop and postflop than hand 1. Hate the limp behind with the SC there in LP. Iso raise or fold. Then you get a 10x raise from the BB which gets called by MP1 (which considering his holding mean he's not the kind of guy you want to isoraise in the 1st place) and you decide it's smart to flat??????? So so bad. Your opponents ranges have you crushed, the pot is getting huge, and you're holding a mid SC. Not a great spot. Postflop you keep compounding the issue by calling these big bets with a hand that's going to win so very rarely.

If you're going to be playing so many pots you really really need to learn to fold and save yourself lots of money. 24/17 is not going to be profitable long-term anyway so look to get back closer to your nitty ways. Something like 14/12 will likely suit you fine at 10nl.

 

[fx20736]

Maybe something between 11/8 and 24/17 is in order????!!!!!

...If you're going to be playing so many pots you really really need to learn to fold and save yourself lots of money. 24/17 is not going to be profitable long-term anyway so look to get back closer to your nitty ways. Something like 14/12 will likely suit you fine at 10nl.

Once again, thanks so much. if you don't mind what does a 14/12 range look like broken down by position???

 

[WVHillbilly]

Not really sure and I wasn't really suggesting you aim for exactly those stats anyway.

Probably something like

UTG,UTG+1: 77+/KQs/AJs+/AQo+
MP1,MP2: Add 22-66/ATs/AJo/KQo/Suited connectors QJs
HJ: Add a few more SCs maybe 89s+/A8s+/some os connectors JTo+/KJo
CO: Just keep widening the suited Aces, SCs down to 56s maybe, any 2 cards ten or higher
BTN: can be as wide as any 2 but really depends on the blinds and who has limped. At FR I'd say a 35-40% ATS from the BTN is what you're likely to end up at.
SB: Can be wide if the BB folds often but should be narrower than BTN range because you'll be OOP if called.

The above are opening ranges only. You should really only be flatting opens with pairs in position when set mining (look for 15x+ the bet size implied odds) and occasionally more speculative hands (suited Aces, SCs, suited 1-gappers) on the BTN in multiway pots (ON THE BUTTON ONLY).

 

[brank]

Once again, thanks so much. if you don't mind what does a 14/12 range look like broken down by position???

Im pretty close to a 14/12.

Default open raising 14/12 by position for me is.

EP. 77 or 88+ AQ+
MP. 22+ AJ+ KQs+
HJ + CO. 22+ Axs, 89s+, AT+, QTs+
BU. 22+ Axs, 45s+, Ax+, T8s+ Q8s+ and any 2 paint cards

Default for the blinds are pretty much a 3 bet or fold.


Something like that anyways.

EDIT: WVH beat me to it.

 

[fx20736]

thanks sooo much to both of you. I suppose at micros not many players will observe that you are tight up front and loose on the button and try and exploit that by 3 betting your open raise from the Blinds?

 

[WVHillbilly]

If they do, just adjust by tightening up your BTN range and then loosen up your 4bet range. Don't over adjust though. Give them credit for the most part and fold the weak part of your range to 3bets. Generally though they'll start adjusting by flatting and that is great for you.

 

[rssurfer54]

If they do, just adjust by tightening up your BTN range and then loosen up your 4bet range. Don't over adjust though. Give them credit for the most part and fold the weak part of your range to 3bets. Generally though they'll start adjusting by flatting and that is great for you.

If they really start doing this at 5nl, i would suggest finding another table.