$5 NLHE 6-max: Turned flush vs turn check-raise

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Casey55

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pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.02/$0.05 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): $7.48 (150 bb)
MP: $4.82 (96 bb)
CO: $1.50 (30 bb)
BU: $7.21 (144 bb)
SB: $5.79 (116 bb)
BB: $5.35 (107 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07) Hero is UTG with T 8
Hero raises to $0.15, 4 players fold, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32) 2 J 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.10, BB calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.52) 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.30, BB raises to $1.40, Hero raises to $7.05, BB calls $3.70 (all-in)

V stats: VPIP 41/ PFR 35/ AF 2

I had a tight image, not playing many hands so I decided to open a bit wider than usual.

On the flop I bet and villain can call with any Jx, 2, PP or possibly Ace-high or FD.


On the turn I bet again to extract value from a 2 or a J. Villain re-raises me and I am thinking at the time he almost certainly has a good Jack like AJ, or some sort of 2x, I thought there was a small chance he can have a larger flush but also maybe the NFD.

I decide to shove and he calls. I was wondering what you think about the turn ? After analyzing the hand villain shouldn't really have any 2's in his range besides maybe 22 and A2s.

I have a screenshot here, if villain is 3-betting the turn this is the range I think he might my shove with on the turn . if he is calling the shove with AJ,A2 etc. we have 53% equity.


 
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feisas7991

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Fold pre,
Couple cents more on the flop
Bomb turn much closer to the pot size bet.
When he raise turn (tho maybe you induced with not big sizing, idk) it is at decent frequency a better flush, but what can you do
Hope this helps and Good Luck!

Edit: at this stakes i can see definitely argue for various sizings on the flop
 
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Hermus

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Opening T8s UTG is probably a losing play overall even with a tight image. You'll also want to worry at least a little bit about the HUD stats you're feeding the other regs in your player pool. Opening this wide just invites other regs to 3-bet light.

Other than that it's fine to commit your stack with a middle flush against a recreational player. The range you posted is a little conservative given the HUD stats and any random KJo, QJo, K2s, Q2s that show up put you in a really good spot. I'm not even sure if he's reraising with the nut flush or better at a 100% frequency because some players like to get tricky with a monster hand against an aggressive opponent.
 
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fundiver199

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First of all when interpreting HUD stats its very important to know the sample size. VPIP 41 / PFR 35 over 300 hands is definitely someone, who is playing to many hands even for 6-max and also playing them very aggressively. Its a player, who is more towards the recreational player side of the spectrum, and who might be able to make some wild moves postflop. However VPIP 41 / PFR 35 over 40 hands might just be a good solid LAG running card hot, and you would not want to make to many adjustments against this player yet. Especially not if some of the hands were collected on a less than full table.

Preflop
As others have said, this is a bit to loose. You need to be in CO or at a minimum HJ to open this hand.

Flop
C-bet is fine, and small sizing is ok as well, if you think, he is not going to defend enough against it.

Turn
Betting again is fine, sizing looks good as well. But now the hand gets interesting, because you get check-raised, and its also a very large check-raise, since he basically pressed the "pot" button. If you call, there will be around a pot sized bet left for the river, so your stack is definitely at risk now.

As for his range, I dont think, he is doing this for value with a hand worse than a flush. It makes no sense for him to play passively on the flop with a J or 2, when he is facing a very small C-bet and now suddenly wake up with this huge raise on the turn when he is facing a bigger bet on a board, which has gotten much worse for him. So the range, you need to put him on, is a few boats (mainly 66), flushes and then maybe some bluffs.

For a player with these kind of stats I definitely dont think, we can rule out, that he is on a wild bluff or doing this with a hand like AJ with the A of diamonds for no reason. Once in a while he could also have a worse flush, even though there are more combos of better flushes than worse flushes. So I think, the play here is to call and pray, he dont bomb the river. And if he does, we will need to make a decision. If a 4-flush has come, we will have an relatively easy fold.

I dont think, it really does anything to get it in now, because he is just going to snap call with all the hands, you are drawing dead against, and fold most of the hands, you are ahead off. Even if he has a hand like 75 of diamonds for a worse flush, its not completely unreasonable to fold it to a 3-bet jam on a paired board.

Finally if this was a more nitty player like a 19/16 or something, I would give strong consideration to folding right now. He will never know, that I folded a flush, so I am not worried about getting exploited by that kind of player. In fact I think, I am exploiting him by overfolding in a situation, where he probably have very few if any bluffs in his range, when he choose this line and sizing.
 
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Casey55

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Ok thank you. Sorry I made an error and didn't put the number of hands on opponent. the stats were over a tiny sample of 17 hands. Why does villain re-raise me so large if he has the nuts? so he can get his stack in by the river? isn't he afraid of me folding a decent hand here and losing value?

I had just moved up to these limits to take a shot because I had around the required bankroll but I think I'm going to stay at 2nl until I am better at the game and making a more consistent win rate. At 2nl I have seen players have a 2 in spots like this, 2nl people are quite frequently trying to slow play trips like this and other randomness which is probrably why they are where they are but that is why I find it extra confusing, I agree with what your saying though it makes sense.

Can we ever give villain's turn raising range some NFD as bluff? like AT,AJ,AQ with Ace of diamonds, would they ever play this way and call it off with the NFD or would those be folding since they would be getting 2:1 on a shove and FD needs 4:1 not to mention the paired board.

for villains bluffs would they be mainly NFD? since he has the blocker making it less likely we have the NF ourselves?



I think a portion of me thought he could have NFD and just shoved because I didn't want to call and face a tough spot on the river if another diamond comes and so much money being in the middle. If we take out the 9 combos total of ATo,AJo,AQo with the Ad we have terrible equity, even if we don't we have less than 50% so we should never be raising the turn then?
 
TheBigFinn

TheBigFinn

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Not the hand I want to shove with

[B said:
UTG (Hero): $7.48 (150 bb)[/B]
BB: $5.35 (107 bb)

I had a tight image, not playing many hands so I decided to open a bit wider than usual.
Hero is UTG with T 8
Hero raises to $0.15, 4 players fold, BB calls $0.10.
The open is very wide even for 6 Max. UTG hands are subject to 3-bets and if one opens T 8it implies Hero will open a very wide range that will be highly unprofitable when 3-bet . Hero is fortunate the call came from the SB and not the button.
On the flop I bet and villain can call with any Jx said:
Pre-Flop:[/B] ($0.07)
Flop: ($0.32) 2 J 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.10, BB calls $0.10
Villain can call with anything on this flop Any pair, That said, it is not a bad idea to represnt a pair in addition to the obvious flush draw.. Hero needs to remember a 10 high fflush is hifar from the nuts.
On the turn I bet again to extract value from a 2 or a J. Villain re-raises me and I am thinking at the time he almost certainly has a good Jack like AJ said:
Turn:[/B] ($0.52) 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.30, BB raises to $1.40, Hero raises to $7.05, BB calls $3.70 (all-in)
V stats: VPIP 41/ PFR 35/ AF 2
I decide to shove and he calls. I was wondering what you think about the turn ? After analyzing the hand villain shouldn't really have any 2's in his range besides maybe 22 and A2s.[/QUOTE]
I agree it is unlikely Villain has a 2. It is more likely she has a Jor 6 with a good kicker one (or both) of which is a diamond. Given she called it was not a post oak bluff. Given Villain has to call $3.70 to win ~$11.50 she is priced in so I don't see the organcy in shoving. I would call and hope for no diamond, a 6, or a 2 on the river. Both hero and Villain are priced in and if villain checks, I would check back.
Screenshot-820.png
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fundiver199

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Ok thank you. Sorry I made an error and didn't put the number of hands on opponent. the stats were over a tiny sample of 17 hands.


Ok in that case the main information here is the small gap between VPIP and PFR, which point to an at least somewhat competent opponent AKA "regular" and not a fish.

Why does villain re-raise me so large if he has the nuts? so he can get his stack in by the river?

Yes exactly. Its for pot geometry reasons, so that he can jam the river for slightly less than pot. This is, what many 5NL regulars do. They play a bunch of tables, and then they sit and wait for a big hand like a flush or a set, so they can stack people, who cant fold.

isn't he afraid of me folding a decent hand here and losing value?

Its an exploitative strategy designed to take advantage of recreational players, who cant fold. Not nessesarely a good one, but regs playing 5NL are also still relative beginners. Maybe they have read "Crushing the Microstakes", where one of the recommendations is to make very large bets for value with nut hands.
Can we ever give villain's turn raising range some NFD as bluff? like AT,AJ,AQ with Ace of diamonds, would they ever play this way and call it off with the NFD or would those be folding since they would be getting 2:1 on a shove and FD needs 4:1 not to mention the paired board.

AJ would make no sense, since the hand is TPTK and has loads of showdown value, but if he raise, he typically only get action, when he is behind. But the other AX sure. When your flop C-bet was so small, and so few hands connected with the board, he is actually supposed to peel the flop with a lot of A high, because otherwise he is folding to much.

However I think, a smaller sizing would be picked for a semibluff, since with a semibluff you dont really need to get stacks inside. So I do think, this sizing is a bit of a tell, if it comes from a regular. Finally I also think, a competent regular would fold a 1-card flushdraw to a jam, since as you say, he would be getting incorrect odds to call it off.

so we should never be raising the turn then?

I dont know, what a solver would do here, so I dont know the actual GTO answer. But for me there is no need to have a turn 3-bet jamming range, when we have position, since we can always get it in on the river, if we want to. So if I had a boat or the nut flush, I would also just call. Out of position I would be much more likely to jam and make it a 2-street hand.
 
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Casey55

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Ok in that case the main information here is the small gap between VPIP and PFR, which point to an at least somewhat competent opponent AKA "regular" and not a fish.



Yes exactly. Its for pot geometry reasons, so that he can jam the river for slightly less than pot. This is, what many 5NL regulars do. They play a bunch of tables, and then they sit and wait for a big hand like a flush or a set, so they can stack people, who cant fold.



Its an exploitative strategy designed to take advantage of recreational players, who cant fold. Not nessesarely a good one, but regs playing 5NL are also still relative beginners. Maybe they have read "Crushing the Microstakes", where one of the recommendations is to make very large bets for value with nut hands.


AJ would make no sense, since the hand is TPTK and has loads of showdown value, but if he raise, he typically only get action, when he is behind. But the other AX sure. When your flop C-bet was so small, and so few hands connected with the board, he is actually supposed to peel the flop with a lot of A high, because otherwise he is folding to much.

However I think, a smaller sizing would be picked for a semibluff, since with a semibluff you dont really need to get stacks inside. So I do think, this sizing is a bit of a tell, if it comes from a regular. Finally I also think, a competent regular would fold a 1-card flushdraw to a jam, since as you say, he would be getting incorrect odds to call it off.



I dont know, what a solver would do here, so I dont know the actual GTO answer. But for me there is no need to have a turn 3-bet jamming range, when we have position, since we can always get it in on the river, if we want to. So if I had a boat or the nut flush, I would also just call. Out of position I would be much more likely to jam and make it a 2-street hand.



Hey… I want to really thank you for coaching me and analyzing all of my hands recently. I purchased a pokercoaching premium membership about 2 months ago to start taking the game seriously and study a ton, I have been trying to improve a much as possible and as fast as possible, Every night I fall asleep watching poker videos lol..Even with all the studying though you still need someone to spot your holes and mistakes and you have been doing exactly that. I can tell by your posts you are an experienced player and I am very grateful for your help. Thank you again!!
 
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