$5 NLHE 6-max: Bad river bluff?

[UkoChebuko]

I wrote many things yesterday, but some weird "defend" deleted everything.
When we bet on the turn, as "value bluff", we want better hands to fold (higher pocket pairs most likely), draws to call, and we have "protection" vs over cards. A simple idea. We can do that also with raise. With Ace high most likely. Same idea.

I did this, even at a beginner. The coaches asked me "What are you doing? Such a weird bluff". And I said "I don't know exactly what is this, but this is not a bluff".
Also in the multi way spots this bet works very well. I do this even with Ace high. Vs three players some time. With good results. Three folds, or one call with draw. Sometime you can win even vs two calls. But you don't bet on the turn with this idea (to win on the river). "For value and protection". You bet (raise), as bluff, but with showdown value (against his calling range). Bluff with value. Value bluff.

Value bluff on the river is totally different story. No place here...High stakes only...Vs very good player. And it is all about the blockers. You want to see a fold from better hands and you also want to see a call from hand with blocker (bluff catcher).
This is a "value bluff".

And for the topic. Yes, you did a raise, as "value bluff", on the turn. But you have a little fold equity on this board (on the turn). Your kicker is not good. Your bet on the river is senseless. With this hand. As I said...

 

[Haze of Spade]

lol this is really getting complex.
so how i understand it is that my turn raise wasnt that bad, it was just the wrong time to do it.
i do these value-bluffs from time to time not really knowing what exactly it is but sometimes i just see it is the right move (not in this hand).

so thanks for all the input!

 

[TenJack]

Lets call a spade a spade here.

This was not a value bluff. Nope. It was a turn barrel that happened to share some characteristics with it, accidentally. We can't just mark up a poor bluff to a fairly advanced play that was obviusly not the intention of the player. A "value bluff" requires a fairly strong grasp of ranges, etc. that are involved and (no offense meant at all here) i don't see that.

As for a value bluff on the river there is no such thing. Preposterous. You are either bluffing or value betting with no cards to come.

 

[fa1920]

It did not make sense at all what you did really, in case the calls from SB on those boards are dominating you all your life, fold on the turn

 

[UkoChebuko]

As for a value bluff on the river there is no such thing

Are you sure? I am not talking about NL5, I already said that. If you play against very good player, in some spots he will call on the river with QT with TP (ten) and will fold JJ.
And he is right. He have more equity vs some polarized range. Sets and missed flush draws, for example. If you shove with AT? What is this? Bluff or value?

I just share some things, only for fun. This is so useless obv. At this stakes. But interesting , imo. I made a mistake...

 

[TenJack]

Yeah. Imo its basically a thin value bet, and obviusly every time you bet in poker you have fold equity... so to describe times that meet both requirements as this means you could basically call anything a "combo-bet" or "value-bluff." Here is a link to 2+2 (Is posting links to ither forums illegal? *gulp*) that explains it a bit more.

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=10144378&an=0&page=0#Post10144378

Its completley fine to share stuff like this. It opens up interesting conversations and adds value to posts. Also, shoving AT OTT would be bluffing unless you had a 100% read that villain held a draw like 8x

 

[UkoChebuko]

Nothing similar...I am talking let's say T6422 with possible flush draw on the flop. We call two times. He check on the river and we shove with AT. If he is good, he will fold over pairs with flush blocker (maybe he will fold some over pair without blocker). He will call with Tx hands. KT, QT, JT, T9, T8 . Because he expect polarized range. "Nuts or nothing".

You are talking about bet on the river with 88 on T727T, without possible flush draw. This is only a thin value bet.

Try to understand first for what I am talking. My English is bad, but understandable. And then you may say "There is not such a thing".

 

[UkoChebuko]

Here is a link to 2+2 (Is posting links to ither forums illegal? *gulp*) that explains it a bit more

Sorry, man, but I see really dumb people there.

I agree with this too, I don't believe a 2 way bet exists, because your opponent cannot both fold better hands and call with worse hands at the same time.

There are some people, who try to explain, but without success. But what about my example? There are situations, when he can fold better hand and call with worse. Vs good thinking players and very rare. But there are "two way" bets. This is possible.

 

[micromoi]

on the micros there is no room for bluffs the only bluff u can do is cbet with air other than that u will be loosing money all the time in my opinion.

 

[braveslice]

Some players in my level have born with a style that is value bluff betting against me. They bet hands that are not really for value in my eyes and I end up calling them with second best hand, when I give them minimum credit to having an actual value hand. They do bet for pure value though, so I guess this does not fulfill all the conditions, but result is similar.