$5 NLHE 6-max: Bad river bluff?

H

Haze of Spade

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Not sure if i should continue with such bluffs at that stake. What do you think?
didnt have any reads on villain.

888 Poker - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 84.4 BB (VPIP: 24.32, PFR: 21.21, 3Bet Preflop: 9.77, hands: 533)
UTG: 140.6 BB (VPIP: 28.13, PFR: 23.44, 3Bet Preflop: 23.08, Hands: 65)
Hero (CO): 127.8 BB
BTN: 37.8 BB (VPIP: 37.25, PFR: 27.45, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 56)
SB: 121.8 BB (VPIP: 28.69, PFR: 18.85, 3Bet Preflop: 5.77, Hands: 126)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has T A

fold, Hero raises to 2.4 BB, fold, SB calls 2 BB, fold

Flop: (5.8 BB, 2 players) 6 5 7
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (5.8 BB, 2 players) 2
SB bets 2.8 BB, Hero raises to 8.6 BB, SB calls 5.8 BB

River: (23 BB, 2 players) 8
SB checks, Hero bets 20 BB, SB calls 20 BB

Hero shows T A (High Card, Ace)
(Pre 62%, Flop 36%, Turn 57%)
SB shows 8 J (One Pair, Eights)
(Pre 38%, Flop 64%, Turn 43%)
SB wins 60 BB
 
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SacredCow

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You don't really rep any value on the turn as you would probably just Cbet made hands that are strong enough to raise the turn with.You can just go ahead and call the turn bet with the flush draw and overs and Ace high will also have some showdown value.
 
TenJack

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What are we trying to rep? 8x? A made flush? This is pretty uncordinated, we change what we are repping from flop to turn and then fire off a big river bet that is probably not for value.
 
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braveslice

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What are we trying to rep? 8x? A made flush? This is pretty uncordinated, we change what we are repping from flop to turn and then fire off a big river bet that is probably not for value.

So do you mean we are repping flush draw or what? I'm completely lost with the hand. What range you would call the river?
 
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Sorin Iliescu

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you want to represent a straight if i'm not mistaken. i believe in this spot, a tripple barrel would have been much better than this river bluff. you are getting called a lot by weak hands the way you played(but better than A high)
 
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quant1986

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I think turn raise is not necessarily as A high has some showdown value, would rather try the bluff with low equity hand like T9s and balanced by AcXc.

I don't like bluffing on this river as again A has showdown value against busted draw. Perhaps only very limited combos like Ac7x would fold to your river bet that called turn raise.
 
TenJack

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So do you mean we are repping flush draw or what? I'm completely lost with the hand. What range you would call the river?


I was lost as well. I guess we rep a slowplayed flush, I don't know what hand checks flop, raises turn blank, then barrels on the straightening river other than that?? But why would be check that back?

If i was villain, i am calling probably with my overpairs, sets, 2pair, 9x, 5x, and all flushes. Hero dosn't have very many 9x hands other than maybe A9, K9, and do those really get to a river this way? If i was villain I would be very suspicious of this line and don't see that many flush combos in hero's range. Why are they checking back flop?
 
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TheBigFinn

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First, Hero's preflop raise was a little light Making it 2.4BB with 1.4BB already in the pot. I'd have made it 3.4BB. As played it is a supper wet board with a straight flush draw and Villain checked. If Hero is planning to bluff this flop he needs to start here. If Villain check raises, fold and rap the table.

The turn is a blank and Villain bets 1/2 pot. Why does she bet now? Is she bluffing into that super wet board now? She has to have something. At least a draw. Something. She beats 2.8 into 5.8, a little less than 1/2 pot. After her bet and Hero's call there is 11.4 BB in the pot. When Hero makes it 8.6 BB you are really betting 5.8 BBs into a 11.4BB pot. Villain is calling 5.8 to win 17.2 BB. A flush draw with 2 over cards is 15 out and getting the odds to call. Hero needs to bet more to get a fold on the turn.

I don't think a larger bet would get a fold. I think the error was made checking the flop. It is hard to get a micro stakes player to fold anything on the river.
 
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Haze of Spade

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thanks for all the replies!
yeah i guess i should have taken more time to think about that hand when i played it.
actually i was playing too many tables and didnt really think about what i can rep here.
i just tried to get a fold and thought villain wont call river without a straight or flush but unfortunally he wasnt that stupid:(
only hand i could really rep here is a flopped straight cause i would check back flop sometimes or a slowplayed nuts flush.
but could i still raise turn for value? cause actually i was ahead.
the reason i bet river was cause i thought villain gotta have a pair at least since he called my turn raise.
else i would check back and hope to win with A high.
 
Hujiko

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The board is very wet straight and flush draws available also two pair hands from suited connectors. Bluffing on a wet board is never a good idea if you don't know how your opponent plays as there are to many draws available and you always have to for multiple barrels in the dark.

Bluffing on such a board should only be done if you know that your opponent is tight and fit & fold happy. They tend to fold on one barrel and would likely not bet out on the turn and call your bet without a premium hand or premium draw.

Your hand is not a good bluff hand your Tc is only giving you a mediocre flush hand if you hit and it does not block his possible nut-flush draw holdings. Having the Ac or Kc of clubs would be a better hand to bluff with as you then can beat a lot of flush-draws he can have.

Would have called on the turn and evaluate on the river.
 
H

Haze of Spade

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First, Hero's preflop raise was a little light Making it 2.4BB with 1.4BB already in the pot. I'd have made it 3.4BB. As played it is a supper wet board with a straight flush draw and Villain checked. If Hero is planning to bluff this flop he needs to start here. If Villain check raises, fold and rap the table.

The turn is a blank and Villain bets 1/2 pot. Why does she bet now? Is she bluffing into that super wet board now? She has to have something. At least a draw. Something. She beats 2.8 into 5.8, a little less than 1/2 pot. After her bet and Hero's call there is 11.4 BB in the pot. When Hero makes it 8.6 BB you are really betting 5.8 BBs into a 11.4BB pot. Villain is calling 5.8 to win 17.2 BB. A flush draw with 2 over cards is 15 out and getting the odds to call. Hero needs to bet more to get a fold on the turn.

I don't think a larger bet would get a fold. I think the error was made checking the flop. It is hard to get a micro stakes player to fold anything on the river.


you sure you open 3.4bb from CO??
i like to keep it small preflop and only open like 5bb if i have a premium and there is a huge calling station with position on me.
also i dont like to bet so big postflop except river.
 
H

Haze of Spade

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The board is very wet straight and flush draws available also two pair hands from suited connectors. Bluffing on a wet board is never a good idea if you don't know how your opponent plays as there are to many draws available and you always have to for multiple barrels in the dark.

Bluffing on such a board should only be done if you know that your opponent is tight and fit & fold happy. They tend to fold on one barrel and would likely not bet out on the turn and call your bet without a premium hand or premium draw.

Your hand is not a good bluff hand your Tc is only giving you a mediocre flush hand if you hit and it does not block his possible nut-flush draw holdings. Having the Ac or Kc of clubs would be a better hand to bluff with as you then can beat a lot of flush-draws he can have.

Would have called on the turn and evaluate on the river.

i like to bluff such boards more than dry boards. cause the more wet it gets, the more i can rep. is that a leak?
but true with checking back flop thats a bad move i guess and i just didnt have a real bluff hand.
 
Hujiko

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i like to bluff such boards more than dry boards. cause the more wet it gets, the more i can rep. is that a leak?

If the board is to wet (such as here) and the opponent showed interest would not try to barrel them off a hand and certainly not without a premium redraw.
One can bluff on the flop, I would expect that most NITS will fold on flop if they don't have good hand or a premium draw. But I would expect fish to call much wider so after one bet your up against:
Mostly fish or NITS with a premium holding so your second barrel has little chance of success. (Fish will call down to light and NITS will most of the time have the goods).
 
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UkoChebuko

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Raise on the turn and bet on the river is too expensive bluff. On this board is even worse. Because we don't have good fold equity on the turn. He often will have a pocket pair or a flush draw. Not good board for this line. Also this is very suspicious on this board.

I wrote two pages in "my forum" about the raise on the turn. But can't do that here, sorry : D. I am using the translator. But if you really want, I will try something :D

Even, if you have a "legal" bluff, on this river you must give up. No sense at all to bet. Very, very suspicious for thinking player. NL5, yeah, but he is most likely a fish. Even worse...

I am thinking about my range here and I try to find a suitable hand, but I can't. I don't have bluff or value here. With raise...I don't know about your range and style.
 
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H

Haze of Spade

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thanks that makes sense! i m not that experienced with bluffing cause i didnt really need to yet to make a profit. i m just trying stuff and got a better understanding now!
 
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UkoChebuko

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Stay away from this type of play for now. This is very expensive bluff. Only raise-bet-bet (All in) is more expensive. Concentrate on bet-bet, check back-bet-bet and bet-bet-bet (as bluff). Friendly advice...
 
TheBigFinn

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you sure you open 3.4 bb from CO??
i like to keep it small preflop and only open like 5bb if i have a premium and there is a huge calling station with position on me.
also i don't like to bet so big postflop except river.


BBs don't mater much when one is opening. I think of it in terms of pot size . One BB is the call, making the pot 2.4 BB. A pot size bet is 2.4 BB plus the 1 BB call making it 3.4 BB, Betting less invites a speculative call from from the blinds. It also fails to define the callers hand. If the caller is getting 3 to 1 or 4 to 1, pretty much everyone of his hands has positive equity.

I always open raise the same size so the Villains can not judge the strength of my hand. If there was a limper in front I'd add his bet to the 3.4 BB to 4.4 BB. If I want to keep the pot small I limp (or call). Generally I limp with pairs, suited connectors, or (AK/AQ for balance) in position.
 
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UkoChebuko

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I lied...There is one hand. 22 with a club. I will play, like that, with this hand.

About the size...When I played NL5, I used the same size. 2.4x...Imo, this size is fine. Easy defend vs 3bet. You can play wider range. Vs weak players is more profitable to play more hands. If it is possible (+EV raise). With this size it is possible. You still have fold equity, their range is wider. If you have a narrow range (24-25%), you make good profit vs 3bet. They use the same range for 3bet vs BU and CO. You can exploit that.
If you are weak (vs this field), you must use a narrow range with a bigger size.

also i don't like to bet so big postflop except river
Imo, at NL5 big bets or no bet. Usually 65%, but can be 45-75%, depends on the board. I like to use over bets also ( as bluff and for value). Not often..But pot size bet is not good, very rare is the best.
For raise 3.2x-3.6x, something like this. Depends on the number. Let's say 0.68 for value and 0.70 for bluff.
 
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TenJack

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thanks for all the replies!
yeah i guess i should have taken more time to think about that hand when i played it.
actually i was playing too many tables and didnt really think about what i can rep here.
i just tried to get a fold and thought villain wont call river without a straight or flush but unfortunally he wasnt that stupid:(
only hand i could really rep here is a flopped straight cause i would check back flop sometimes or a slowplayed nuts flush.
but could i still raise turn for value? cause actually i was ahead.
the reason i bet river was cause i thought villain gotta have a pair at least since he called my turn raise.
else i would check back and hope to win with A high.


You say "but could i still raise turn for value". While technically you were ahead on the turn, you didn't know it. You thought you were bluffing, yes? So, we cannot simultaneously bluff and value bet. It is either one or the other.

I do agree our A-high has very little showdown value, but sometimes it is better to give up.
 
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Haze of Spade

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You say "but could i still raise turn for value". While technically you were ahead on the turn, you didn't know it. You thought you were bluffing, yes? So, we cannot simultaneously bluff and value bet. It is either one or the other.

I do agree our A-high has very little showdown value, but sometimes it is better to give up.


my thought on turn was that i am ahead if villain bets a draw and if he got a pair i m kinda semi-bluffing. so yeah i didnt really know if i m value betting or bluffing XD

about the bet size, yeah i bet about 2/3 pot usually and 1/2 only on very dry boards. but i rarely raise more than 2,5x
guess i will try raise bigger in the right spots to get more folds or build a bigger pot with my value hands.
preflop i like the smaller raise since i open a wider range and started flatting more 3bets.
when i played tighter i actually chose a bigger size.
 
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UkoChebuko

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so yeah i didnt really know if i m value betting or bluffing
We don't raise or bet always for value or bluff. "Value and protection"can be also "Bluff and protection" :D. It sounds stupid, I know. OK, an example...

We have 55 on the CO. BB calls. AJ3 two tone. BB like to call on the flop. We must bet two times. We check back. A deuce on the turn. With possible BD FD. He bets (probe bet). And we raise (check back on the river without the wheel or set). Well, what is this now? Bluff or value?

In your case Ace high can be good. But the kicker is weak. AJ, AQ are there. But if your raise for "protection"on this turn, you can't bet for value on any river card. This will be dumb. With 55 I have 6 outs, "good outs". And as I said, you almost don't have fold equity on the turn. And this is really bad. With 55 I have...
I hope you understand me clear. It is possible to play, like that, but if you know exactly what you are doing.
 
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Hujiko

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We don't raise or bet always for value or bluff. "Value and protection"can be also "Bluff and protection" :D. It sounds stupid, I know. OK, an example...

We have 55 on the CO. BB calls. AJ3 two tone. BB like to call on the flop. We must bet two times. We check back. A deuce on the turn. With possible BD FD. He bets (probe bet). And we raise (check back on the river without the wheel or set). Well, what is this now? Bluff or value?

Yes this an example of both a value and bluff bet at the same time. Value against the bluff and semi bluff hands that are worse then yours but also targeting better pairs then yours that might fold. On the other hand one could claim that this is just bluffing as your representing a better hand then you have to accomplish what you want. :D
 
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UkoChebuko

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Value bluff...There are very weird examples for "value bluff" on the river. But this is off topic already. This is NL5. "Value bluff"only on the turn. I saw one time in YouTube this. Some pro shoves for 250k with second pair. ATo...And the commentators didn't understand what he doing.
 
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bijan777

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Bluff must be in time and bluffy bord and player redy to to accept bluff
 
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777alex777

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this is not the best situation for bluffing. With Ax hands is more profitable on this Board cheap to reach the showdown. For a successful bluff you need to watch your opponent's wtsd
 
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