mbrenneman0
Legend
Silver Level
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
I don't know, try not to play OOP? Fold when you have nothing? That would be a start...
You don't have to fight for every pot, with nothing. OP has A-J, with a gutter, and one over (ace could be a bad RIO nightmare).
But you suggested just donking into the raiser.
And here is some dude, who thinks he has some proof that donking is great, and posts a video of Elezra getting punished for doing it?
Look man, if you want to keep putting "feeler" bets out there, with nothing, go right ahead. I'm not gonna stop ya. Have at it. It won't work against good players though. And calling stations will just call, and you build an even bigger pot, with weak holdings, OOP.
Just plow ahead, and let us know in a few years if you still feel the same.
mbrenneman0
Legend
Silver Level
Check, or bet for value. But don't bet for info.
NCDaddy
Visionary
Silver Level
I laid out a specific scenario based on how you suggested you'd play the flop as played. What would you do on the turn, if both checked flop?!?! I'm beyond all the other stuff now. We're just going to disagree with it. Unless....you can convince me otherwise by playing out this hypothetical. What do you gain be checking the flop, if villain checks and you hit an Ace on the turn. Mr. Brennaman suggested an answer to that. What's yours?
mbrenneman0
Legend
Silver Level
Its not what you're gaining by checking the turn. Its what you're not losing. When you make a bet for the primary purpose of information, and your opponent is keen enough to recognize it, youre literally saying "I don't have anything, do you?" And then all the villain has to do is say "yes, of course I do" by raising and then you just gave him money for nothing. Now if your intention is to take down the pot, that's fine. But then you would be betting as a bluff and you need to size your bet appropriately to make an effective bluff. We're not saying that you don't get info from betting. Were saying that its not a primary reason to bet.
NCDaddy
Visionary
Silver Level
I get what you're saying mb and I appreciate your thought out explanations with reasoning. Constructive criticism is fine and appreciated. That's what makes us better - discussing scenarios and putting theory into practice. I just want to know what bean would do instead. I'm quite clear that he dislikes the lead out as that's about all he's said this entire thread.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
If we check, and it checks back, then A on turn, we check/call the turn, if anything. Any hand that V checked back, but bets the turn is either some A-x or Q-J (not that likely, but some people check IP with draws).
But if you are just hell bent on putting money into a pot, with no pair, only GS, at least man up, and C/R, bomb turn. Turn your hand into a bluff, and play it hard.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
And one more thing to clarify why we check call turn if an ace peels. We have, at that point, a mediocre hand, and it can't stand up to a raise. What do we do when we have a mediocre hand, when OOP? We keep the pot as small as possible. This means no betting, only C/C.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Here is a little story, relevant to recent discussion ITT.
A week or so ago, I came across a player. I labeled him "the serial donker" in my notes that day. He is a bad reg.
Every time, this guy would limp, I raise, he calls (sometimes others as well). Flop comes out, and I hit it, don't hit it, whatever. This dude would donk into me for like 1/3ish poT +/-. I punished this dude every single time. I finally dialed down raises, just to see if he even has anything at all. I couldn't get this dude to call any raise at all. He would just donk, then fold.
The night goes on. He is doing this to others, but some of them are just calling. I know he has nothing. Whatever.
After I punished him at least 5 times for donking, I get QQ, 3b pre, he calls. HU to flop 9-10-3r. He donks again, $25 into 75 or 80. I thought about it, our history, etc. I decided to just move in for a gross overbet. I shipped almost 100bbs effective into this pot, and I thought "this is the time he finally calls".
He tanks forever, and folds yet again.
This guy gifted at least $200 in a night, donking into people. He never ever had a strong hand. No one ever does when they donk into the raiser.
So, FWIW, I think it is horrific to put "feeler" bets out.
A week or so ago, I came across a player. I labeled him "the serial donker" in my notes that day. He is a bad reg.
Every time, this guy would limp, I raise, he calls (sometimes others as well). Flop comes out, and I hit it, don't hit it, whatever. This dude would donk into me for like 1/3ish poT +/-. I punished this dude every single time. I finally dialed down raises, just to see if he even has anything at all. I couldn't get this dude to call any raise at all. He would just donk, then fold.
The night goes on. He is doing this to others, but some of them are just calling. I know he has nothing. Whatever.
After I punished him at least 5 times for donking, I get QQ, 3b pre, he calls. HU to flop 9-10-3r. He donks again, $25 into 75 or 80. I thought about it, our history, etc. I decided to just move in for a gross overbet. I shipped almost 100bbs effective into this pot, and I thought "this is the time he finally calls".
He tanks forever, and folds yet again.
This guy gifted at least $200 in a night, donking into people. He never ever had a strong hand. No one ever does when they donk into the raiser.
So, FWIW, I think it is horrific to put "feeler" bets out.
S
Sneaky Feet
Visionary
Silver Level
I love the idea that these guys are still at 50nl? I'm guessing the stakes but still, I love these guys! It's one of the first things that I label a villain with and say thank you for your donation.
Delvuter
Rock Star
Silver Level
Explain to us all how high stakes differ from micro/low stakes as far as general maneuvers such as the “feeler” bet goes? Also tell us why Elezra seems to be thankful he put a feeler bet out there and you think he got screwed somehow? Cause I gotta say, it sounds like you think he shouldn’t have done it in his scenario, when he, an professional, is glad he did it. You don’t see that you think you know better than him? You don’t find that kinda alarming?
Delvuter
Rock Star
Silver Level
Cause being aware other players tendencies applies at all levels. At high stakes there is going to be a LAG that won’t fold and isn’t afraid to go up and down with his stack, there are also NIT who are fit or fold. They are in both stakes. So explain how not taking advantage of someone who may fold at micro/low stakes with a “donk” bet is incorrect? Tell us how you are correct and most everybody else is wrong. Cause you are wrong. We ALWAYS want to take advantage of a situation where we can win a pot, to say otherwise is funny.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Listen man...
I don't think I know better than Elezra. Let's not twist my words here.
I said he got punished for doing it. He did. I was merely remarking about the relevance of that example, in regards to donk betting. What good does it do to show us a video of a pro donking, and getting raised out of the pot? Because this pro donk bets, in this spot, that means that it is going to be a good play at micro stakes?
How does any of this relate to this hand we are talking about? What does it have to do with donk betting at micros? Nothing. They aren't playing micro stakes on TV.
At high stakes/poker after dark, they are playing against professionals, who are deep thinkers, more aggressive. There are many levels of thought going on in games like that.
This is hardly the case at a $5 NLHE table. These people are watching TV, surfing the net, whatever. The dynamics in each of these games are galaxies apart.
So, for you to compare a move you saw on TV, in a totally different hand, nosebleed stakes, with pros, to a micro game with a bunch of droolers, is totally irrelevant to this hand.
Different players. Different board. Different dynamics. Different everthing.
Keep putting out feeler bets, donking, whatever you call it. Most of the time it's just spew. I really don't mind. I don't mind if you think I'm wrong. I don't need to convince you. Do whatever you want, it's your money.
And there are times we can donk. Not this hand though. We donk for value, so it doesn't check back, and to make people spaz out, so we call ship and punish them. A good spot to donk bet would be into an aggro opponent, who wiLL take a suspicious bet size as weakness, etc., with a huge hand. Or bet said huge hand just to start building a pot, to make sure monies go in, when you know you will get action, or raised, etc.
We don't just light money on fire for information, with nothing, little equity.
Bet for value, bet to bluff.
Delvuter
Rock Star
Silver Level
In your explantion you just said donk betting is good if... That is the only point I am trying to make, that donk betting is sometimes ok in lieu of how you originally come across that donk betting is NEVER ok. That is all, and that is why the video is valid, just to prove that point. Donk betting is a valid maneuver if used properly.
Delvuter
Rock Star
Silver Level
In this hand my play would be to 4-bet pre, if he folds YAY, if he calls let's see what happens, if he 5-bets I am folding. My line may be different than others, because I try to be a LAG. On the flop I am c-betting, if he calls I will see what the turn brings, if he re-raises I am done. On the turn the chances of him having a K decreases, but his chance of having a full house increased. odds of having the fullhouse are low, but still possible, I am not going to bet and try and control the pot. If he bets I have a tough math problem on my hands to decide if calling is correct or not. That math problem is the only real question in this hand analysis and I am waiting for someone to start discussing that because the math problems are my weak point.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Yeah dude. Got it. This isn't one of those times. Hero doesn't have a hand. Betting for information is kinda silly in this spot.
Hero get 3b PF, obviously OOP. The board has straight draws, a FD, a king, etc. You think some dude is just gonna roll over and fold QQ here, to a tiny donk bet? He will call with a ton of stuff, not just pairs, AK, QJ, etc. I am not a human poker stove, but I don't think this is a good board to be betting with nothing into the PFR who 3b.
So, mission accomplished: dude calls donk bet. Turn 2s. Now what? Tell me what the plan is? What information have you gained, with this "feeler bet"?? So what range do you think villain has now? Uhhhh, a big one?
Do you have him nailed down to exactly JJ, and nothing else now? Or is it AK. Or it could be QJ. I guess he could have AA, or QQ, or set of 10's, or KK. Or is he peeling with Js-9s, or wait As-Xs? I could keep going......
So do we barrel again on a brick turn? If so, how much? And if V pulls the trigger and raises us? Now what do we do? Call? Just 3b ship, GII bad and suck out? Or do we fold? Just say "oh I guess he has it, glad I put that feeler out"
Please break down the thought process.
Delvuter
Rock Star
Silver Level
In this hand my play would be to 4-bet pre, if he folds YAY, if he calls let's see what happens, if he 5-bets I am folding. My line may be different than others, because I try to be a LAG. On the flop I am c-betting, if he calls I will see what the turn brings, if he re-raises I am done. On the turn the chances of him having a K decreases, but his chance of having a full house increased. Odds of having the fullhouse are low, but still possible, I am not going to bet and try and control the pot. If he bets I have a tough math problem on my hands to decide if calling is correct or not. That math problem is the only real question in this hand analysis and I am waiting for someone to start discussing that because the math problems are my weak point.
mbrenneman0
Legend
Silver Level
Elezra knows that the other two guys know that he would never bet out of turn with a weak hand. The other two guys know that elezra knows this and are probably thinking that his bet looks like a bluff and because it looks like a bluff, at those high stakes, very powerful hands are often disguised as bluffs. So they can only continue if they have a king. This is level 5 or 6 thinking.
In 5nl players are often thinking at level 1 or sometimes level 2. Where they are thinking your feeler bet is just a feeler bet. In the example of elezra, it is not just a feeler bet. It is a bluff disguised as a very powerful hand disguised as a feeler bet disguised as a bluff. Does that make sense? Those types of plays require knowing what level your opponent is thinking on and thinking one level higher. Don't believe it for a second when he says "it was a feeler bet" it wasn't. High level poker is a game of deception and he was being deceptive by saying that. Seriously, you are not elezra. If you try to play like him you will get crushed because you are not thinking on that level yet and neither are your opponents.
You should not bluff level 1 thinkers because they are not even thinking about what you have. They are only thinking about their own hands.
Levels of thought in poker:
http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/psychology/multiple-level-thinking/
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IPlay
Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
I love donking sets/2p against regs because they always raise me as a bluff and I get a lot of value from their air 😂
Raising donk bets is a good strat at the micros but as you move up donk bets are a lot more rare and balanced
Raising donk bets is a good strat at the micros but as you move up donk bets are a lot more rare and balanced
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Delvuter
Rock Star
Silver Level
Ha! I literally was just going to post something about sets. So Villian has medium pair calls ep bet, he hits his set on the flop and donk bets, anybody who thinks donk bets are dumb at low stakes and thinks they are going to punish them bends over and takes it in the backside.
mbrenneman0
Legend
Silver Level
That's a rare spot. And is why its important to know your opponents. What iplay said is level 3 thinking vs level 2 thinking and also he actually has a hand in this spot. If opponent bets OOP a lot, what kind of player opponent is, is he passive or aggressive, what's his range etc...
Delvuter
Rock Star
Silver Level
Rare? Why are they only ranked 3rd worst in hand rankings only better than two pair and single pair? Cause they aren't that rare. How are pairs often played, ya want to see a flop cheap, ya call with the medium pairs. Your theory is screwed to a non rare common set. Period. Even if it is rare, when it happens you get bent over. You weird little never donk bet philosophy is just that, weird. Never heard anyone so adamant against donk betting they actually see it as a blatant opportunity to bet into it with no regard whatso ever cause the donk better is all but declaring their weakness. It's weird, weird like people who think global warming is a conspiracy