$5 NLHE 6-max: 4 bet pot IP

[youregoodmate]

Yes I agree with you it certainly is a small sample and the 3 bet hasn't really converged yet.

It's the best we have to go on though and unless the guy is a nit, I still think the 4 bet is profitable. It's a play I do often against re-steals because we put so much pressure on the player.

 

[JCgrind]

this thread tilts me.

there is no such thing as being committed when your assumed equity is next to nil.
ie, we might triple with aces on a monotone flop v a nit. well have >50% of our stack in by the river, but were still folding if we get shoved over OTR cos we beat nothing.

hands villain can call the turn with include KK AA and thats pretty much it. 99 on a super sick day. thats like 15% of villains 3betting range, MAX

90% of combinations that reggy villains flat 4bs with are TT-QQ. and they call them with the intention of getting it in on non AK flops. as mentioned, YGM is cbetting like 90% of his range OTF and everyone knows this, consequently, most vils will call 1 with QQ JJ TT OTF.

 

[tomnovember]

this thread tilts me.

there is no such thing as being committed when your assumed equity is next to nil.
ie, we might triple with aces on a monotone flop v a nit. well have >50% of our stack in by the river, but were still folding if we get shoved over OTR cos we beat nothing.

hands villain can call the turn with include KK AA and thats pretty much it. 99 on a super sick day. thats like 15% of villains 3betting range, MAX

90% of combinations that reggy villains flat 4bs with are TT-QQ. and they call them with the intention of getting it in on non AK flops. as mentioned, YGM is cbetting like 90% of his range OTF and everyone knows this, consequently, most vils will call 1 with QQ JJ TT OTF.

If call the flop, then call the turn. That is quite an easy decision.

 

[JCgrind]

thats ridiculous calling off 2 streets for stacks with an underpair in a 4b pot, esp when heros range is the nuts and hero isnt a spewbox.

villain is obv bluffcatching, but theyre doing it into a range which has them beat 90% of the time. the only time we would call off a bluffcatcher like this is if we know (from dec sample) that our villain is 4bing 100% of his opening range and extremely barrel happy.

everything that needs to be said on this hand has been said. anyone who thinks the turn shove is bad is not understanding the dynamics of this hand properly.

 

[DunningKruger]

At first, seems like your run of the mill 5NL gonna 5NL type hand, but..... okay so there's no but. Villain probably called otf because he was praying for one of 2 to 5 outs to bink moreso than he thought whatever dubious hand he 3bet light with and then needed to see a flop for the pot odds offered was still in pretty good shape.

YGM is cbetting like 90% of his range OTF and everyone knows this, consequently, most vils will call 1 with QQ JJ TT OTF.

What is hero's perceived 4bet range with a player he has 52 hands with? 4bets among reggish 5NL players are quite value heavy to begin with. Would calling a flop bet oop with a JJ/TT kinda hand on a K high board, with the intention of folding to the last remaining ½ pot bet in hero's stack, really prove to be a winning play here? Serious question. Villain is hoping not only that such a hand is going to win a showdown often enough but also that it gets to showdown often enough in the first place - that hero will completely shut down in position over the next two streets. It's insanely exploitable (obv) against semi decent players or people who construct hand ranges but perhaps the players at this limit are poor enough for such a line to be profitable long term?

Without knowing villains holdings you can't state that he played it badly.

It's true villain may not have played his hand poorly, but that depends primarily on you imo. It's such a villain dependent line (i.e. absolutely non standard) and you don't have a whole lot of hands on each other. It's a bit hard to me to get a bead on whether or not you feel his play was bad. I think you mentioned somewhere else something about exploiting villain for his weak play with this hand? Or I misread something maybe.

 

[youregoodmate]

Yes I did say that but you would be taking it out of context.

It was more of thinker kept saying villain played badly so I eventually said 'well I exploited that anyway'. If you know what I mean.

Villain probably did play it badly, but we can't know for sure.

 

[JCgrind]

Villain probably did play it badly, but we can't know for sure.

vil played it badly because he called the flop, which is somethign he can only do if he is willing to call off his stack. which brings me to this...

What is hero's perceived 4bet range with a player he has 52 hands with? 4bets among reggish 5NL players are quite value heavy to begin with. correct

Would calling a flop bet oop with a JJ/TT kinda hand on a K high board, with the intention of folding to the last remaining ½ pot bet in hero's stack, really prove to be a winning play here? Serious question. not a chance its a winning play. its absolutely terrible, but incredibly common none the less.

Villain is hoping not only that such a hand is going to win a showdown often enough but also that it gets to showdown often enough in the first place - that hero will completely shut down in position over the next two streets. It's insanely exploitable (obv) against semi decent players or people who construct hand ranges but perhaps the players at this limit are poor enough for such a line to be profitable long term? this is a bit trickier to answer but ill try to put it into words anyway. because vil should only be continuing past the flop with hands he plans to stack off with, people in heros spot will generally shut down past the flop without sets+ because they know how strong vils hand should be in order to call the flop.


I think you mentioned somewhere else something about exploiting villain for his weak play with this hand? Or I misread something maybe. this whole move is purely exploiting the fact that vil flatted a 4b, so hero has AK in his range and vil doesnt.

 

[DunningKruger]

vil played it badly because he called the flop, which is somethign he can only do if he is willing to call off his stack.

Ah ok. So Thinker is correct that villain played the hand like a dong, but incorrect that hero's turn shove was -EV because even though it's pretty much burning money against non idiots, there are enough players out there who are bad enough that this makes sense against.

There's a good lesson here on flatting 4bets oop 100 deep in general and the balance issues you'll run face first into post flop.

 

[youregoodmate]

Ah ok. So Thinker is correct that villain played the hand like a dong, but incorrect that hero's turn shove was -EV because even though it's pretty much burning money against non idiots, there are enough players out there who are bad enough that this makes sense against.

There's a good lesson here on flatting 4bets oop 100 deep in general and the balance issues you'll run face first into post flop.

Yes this is the main point. At 5nl the regs really do nut peddle. They aren't comfortable getting it in on this kind of board and thats what I'm exploiting.

At the same time we can't assume that because I c-bet the flop (which I do with my entire range mostly) that I am going to jam the turn. Many regs would give up here at this limit and that is something that the villain would possibly expect/hope for. So in that regard I don't believe that calling the flop and then re-evaluating and folding the turn is all that bad.

Yes if we were playing 100nl it would be a bad line but at these limits I think it would be okay because most regs shut down on the turn.

 

[JCgrind]

There's a good lesson here on flatting 4bets oop 100 deep in general and the balance issues you'll run face first into post flop.

this is why i have no value 4b or 5b range

 

[Figaroo2]

Agree with 4 bet here. Perfect hand for 4 bet bluff fold to a 5 bet. Its totally standard line with the correct sizing.
At 5nl AK is the only hand Id be worried about. In my experience im seeing less players at micro getting it all in pre with this hand. It may be worth looking up the stats on this but even that hand would fear aces and might fold to a shove. Micro players are told regularly across a variety of training platforms that tptk isn't usually enough when someone shove the turn.
As played if we are the villain with Tt Jj here they will call through confusion as you rarely see 4 bets that aren't shoves at this level only the best regs will be using them.
Good hand well played you told the full storyline and it worked and that villain won't be troubling you again.

 

[Thinker_145]

Agree with 4 bet here. Perfect hand for 4 bet bluff fold to a 5 bet. Its totally standard line with the correct sizing.
At 5nl AK is the only hand Id be worried about. In my experience im seeing less players at micro getting it all in pre with this hand. It may be worth looking up the stats on this but even that hand would fear aces and might fold to a shove. Micro players are told regularly across a variety of training platforms that tptk isn't usually enough when someone shove the turn.
As played if we are the villain with Tt Jj here they will call through confusion as you rarely see 4 bets that aren't shoves at this level only the best regs will be using them.
Good hand well played you told the full storyline and it worked and that villain won't be troubling you again.

TPTK in a 4 bet pot with AK is a pretty big deal. He is never ever folding AK here.

I still feel he made a tilt call pre and on the flop but then realised that he can still save a lot of money. Emotions can get the better of you in these blind vs button situations, has happened with me many times previously but now I usually keep my calm.

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[Figaroo2]

Stating theBO we will never know what he had. I agree folding AK is unlikely for most but not impossible. much more likely he's folding 77-QQ. That's why I said Id be worried by AK.
Doesn't take away from the play. You are never running into Kk or AA as they are all in pre so unless he reads you as a regular 3 barreller its a tough call with any other hands that have flatted a 4 bet.