$5 NL HE 6-max: Tough spot with QJs

[canbora]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.02/$.05

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

MP limps in, I have QJ suited (clubs) on the button. Normally in a situation like this Ill just min raise. I know everyone's calling, I just want to sweeten the pot in case I win, to induce action. I felt I had the best hand and I figured the SB would fold and it would be 3 to a flop. So I bumped it to 3x. Again, not trying to induce a fold, just ultra sweetening it. The villain, the BB. Is someone I've played with a lot. Hes, like 90% tag, 10% maniac. I have him labeled as violet colored on poker stars, which to me, means volatile. We've also had a beef or two in some grueling hands. So there's history, (no words ever exchanged)I start out with something around 130BB effective, Villain has around the same

BB, the villain, raises it up. This is sort of our thing. MP calls I have QJ suited and I'm on the button. This is what he does to me. I have odds, its a cash game. I'm calling to at least see the flop.

Pot: 50 BB
To my surprise, SB calls and so does BB and so does MP... OK, here we go.

Flop comes 9 h 10 h 6 c

It checks around to me, So I elect to see a free card. I check

river is Q s

it checks around to me a second time. I thought about it a second. I bet half the pot. It double checked to me there's definitely no strength there. I have top pair, plus the open ended straight draw. I genuinlly feel I have the best hand now and I have much room for improvement.

SB folds.

Villain goes in the tank long.. 3/4 of all available time. This is genuine. This isn't a fake out. He makes the call. MP folds.

Pot: 100 BB

Turn comes K h

Before the graphics even finish settling on the screen, villain goes all in for the remainder stack. 75 BB

(Zack Morris time out: This guy hides nothing. Anytime preflop he has a good starter hand, ...and I dont now how does this, he must be close to a server with low ping, he will slam a preflop raise before the cards are even finished being dealt. VERY straight forward, makes no hiding of anything he has....but like I said, hes 10% volatile. Sometimes he gets scared and slams pots to steal. He doesn't' do it with nothing/garbage. He has something, but he's sensing weakness and trying to push you out.)

I know he has something. But so do I. I do make a lot of calls like this, usually I'm right about half the time, which money wise, I'm ahead/ profitable. But this a huge pot. If he had ANYTHING on this board that means he has strength and he would have bet that earlier FOR SURE. He hides nothing. Which includes two hearts. I KNOW I was ahead on the turn.

What say you? Do I call 75 bb to win 175 bb?

 

[Station_Master]

Preflop
Sweeten the pot raises are not a good play. You want to iso to a size where you get some fold equity. 4x IP normally works well.
Facing the 3bet squeeze is tough, and to some extent you could have induced it by iso raising small. QJs is a fine call heads up, multiway it's slightly worse as will be dominated. But in position with the limped in the pot I think it's a fine call.

Flop
Seems like a mandatory bet here with an open ended straight draw, back door flush and facing checks. Sure it would suck to get x-raise by the 3 bettor, but getting some folds would be very useful and you can hit a very strong hand.

Turn
Seems ok to bet here, I would probably go slightly smaller but half pot is fine.

River
Difficult to really see what he is value shoving or bluff shoving. Seems unlikely hearts play this way, AK got there and is way too weak to shove, AJ makes some sense but so does JT or J9.

The timing is odd as even if he hits a straight it's not a snap shove with the flush coming in. A flush could be a snap shove but would he not have bet earlier? It's possible multiway he woul be more cautious but I still think hearts are unlikely.

I think I call here, expecting to see random spew and chops enough of the time.

 

[canbora]

Preflop
Sweeten the pot raises are not a good play. You want to iso to a size where you get some fold equity. 4x IP normally works well.
Facing the 3bet squeeze is tough, and to some extent you could have induced it by iso raising small. QJs is a fine call heads up, multiway it's slightly worse as will be dominated. But in position with the limped in the pot I think it's a fine call.

Flop
Seems like a mandatory bet here with an open ended straight draw, back door flush and facing checks. Sure it would suck to get x-raise by the 3 bettor, but getting some folds would be very useful and you can hit a very strong hand.

Turn
Seems ok to bet here, I would probably go slightly smaller but half pot is fine.

River
Difficult to really see what he is value shoving or bluff shoving. Seems unlikely hearts play this way, AK got there and is way too weak to shove, AJ makes some sense but so does JT or J9.

The timing is odd as even if he hits a straight it's not a snap shove with the flush coming in. A flush could be a snap shove but would he not have bet earlier? It's possible multiway he woul be more cautious but I still think hearts are unlikely.

I think I call here, expecting to see random spew and chops enough of the time.

Yeah....this is still part of my cash game experiment. Down here (anything under 10NL)... everyone calls. You have to get super agro to push people out so 4x doesn't work here. I know it does at higher stakes, but not here. You have to go minimum of 5x. Usually 7x. I'm not joking. This is what I've found. And thats to push out 1 limper. If its multi way they aren't folding. They're logic is, in for a penny in for a pound. I've seen people even call off full stacks with nearly any two cards. Its crazy. It makes good when you have premiums, you just have to hope they hold up. Which we all know, sometimes they dont.

So thats why i didnt' go higher. I'm trying to regulate pot control. I want my money in when I know I've got it or have odds to super outs.

But yeah, everything else, I full agree. Oh.. the flop. the reason above is why I checked, I too was being cautious and wanted more assurance on what my hand may turn out to be. There was a chance the BB did in fact have a solid hand. By the turn. I now know that he doesn't.

Not saying its correct, just explaining how we got here.

appreciate the insight as always. cheers

 

[fundiver199]

I agree with Station_Master. As the hand played out, I dont see, how we can give this player credit for having us beat enough of the time to justify a fold getting slightly better than 2:1. He could have some flushes, but would AQ or QJ with a flushdraw not have bet the turn? And dont AJo + suited rag aces sometimes just call pre and see a cheap flop closing the action? Finally if he had a value hand, would he not take at least a few seconds to think about the best way to get paid? I think, this smells most like, he had decided already to bluff certain rivers, and therefore he was able to act instantly. So for me this is one of those, where he has to show it to me

 

[Station_Master]

Yeah....this is still part of my cash game experiment. Down here (anything under 10NL)... everyone calls. You have to get super agro to push people out so 4x doesn't work here. I know it does at higher stakes, but not here. You have to go minimum of 5x. Usually 7x. I'm not joking. This is what I've found. And thats to push out 1 limper. If its multi way they aren't folding. They're logic is, in for a penny in for a pound. I've seen people even call off full stacks with nearly any two cards. Its crazy. It makes good when you have premiums, you just have to hope they hold up. Which we all know, sometimes they dont.

So thats why i didnt' go higher. I'm trying to regulate pot control. I want my money in when I know I've got it or have odds to super outs.

But yeah, everything else, I full agree. Oh.. the flop. the reason above is why I checked, I too was being cautious and wanted more assurance on what my hand may turn out to be. There was a chance the BB did in fact have a solid hand. By the turn. I now know that he doesn't.

Not saying its correct, just explaining how we got here.

appreciate the insight as always. cheers

I am not necessarily worried about getting folds preflop, but you want to put them in a position where they have a decision to make, if you min click it then calling everything is profitable. At 4x or 4.5x, then calling could be a mistake with a weak hand, as could folding something half decent.

 

[fundiver199]

I am not necessarily worried about getting folds preflop, but you want to put them in a position where they have a decision to make, if you min click it then calling everything is profitable. At 4x or 4.5x, then calling could be a mistake with a weak hand, as could folding something half decent.

Going larger also give players behind a worse price to call. Hense the name isolate.

 

[canbora]

Going larger also give players behind a worse price to call. Hense the name isolate.

Right by they dont care about that. More than likely they aren't even aware of any of that. They are just clicking buttons.

 

[canbora]

I am not necessarily worried about getting folds preflop, but you want to put them in a position where they have a decision to make, if you min click it then calling everything is profitable. At 4x or 4.5x, then calling could be a mistake with a weak hand, as could folding something half decent.

Oh, they have no decision about it. I mean they do, but its instantanious. Theres no real thought. They're just clicking buttons.

I am not necessarily worried about getting folds preflop, but you want to put them in a position where they have a decision to make, if you min click it then calling everything is profitable. At 4x or 4.5x, then calling could be a mistake with a weak hand, as could folding something half decent.

They nearly are almost always making a mistake. But they do it anyway, and when its 'you' vs all of them, more often than not, they win. So you have to choose your spots.




edit. I dont know whats going on with these past two posts I made. Im having technical difficulties.

 

[Station_Master]

Oh, they have no decision about it. I mean they do, but its instantanious. Theres no real thought. They're just clicking buttons.


They nearly are almost always making a mistake. But they do it anyway, and when its 'you' vs all of them, more often than not, they win. So you have to choose your spots.




edit. I dont know whats going on with these past two posts I made. Im having technical difficulties.

I get what you mean, but it is an oversimplification to say they are just clicking buttons, they will respond differently to different sizes.

Plus like in this case you raise button and there are 3 people to act, they wont all be brain dead, your size matters to people yet to act as well as the original raiser.

 

[canbora]

I get what you mean, but it is an oversimplification to say they are just clicking buttons, they will respond differently to different sizes.

Plus like in this case you raise button and there are 3 people to act, they wont all be brain dead, your size matters to people yet to act as well as the original raiser.

Oh right of course it does. I'm just saying 4x isn't going to do it. It's like I was saying before you have to bump it higher. And there's also an, for lack of a better term, 'all-in phenomenon'. Like a shark frenzy. If one person calls even an all-in, they're all calling.

Obviously not every single time. Hence how this hand came to be... But there's a very strong likelihood of it.

So, anyway... if Im understanding correctly, and we're in agreement, and I'm translating properly. You're saying I should have bumped it up to a price, whatever it is... to make them think. In this case in my opinion somewhere between 5x and 7X? Right? And yeah, maybe you're right. As a matter of fact the more I think about it the more correct you probably are. I guess I just wasn't thinking that way I was coming up with my own practice. Which does seem to be working for the most part. It just seems to me if I do that, I'm basically handing money away.

That's why I'm playing at all these various different stakes I'm seeing how different people play. It's part of the education that I'm buying for lack of a better term. I'm seeing how people play at different levels and in different concentrations. Learning how to play against one type of player like this or an entire table or half. I feel like I'm really learning something. I played at every stake category from 2nl up to 100nl regularly, recently. It's been interesting, definitely educational. But I digress.

PS.. I definitely check with the second half of that. Brain dead. LOL

 

[canbora]

Enough time has passed. I'm going to post the results before I forget. I've been playing a lot the past few days and its already starting to get lost in the sea of hands in my head. lol

OK, so... picking up where i left off, I'm already starting to get foggy on this... I know I paused for a few seconds and I contemplated hearts, a flush but I feel he would have bet if he had those. And I just said, I think I have to make this call regardless. Its disgusting, but I have to. If I had to guess I think he has the same hand ( on the river, king high straight)... I think that queen partially counterfeited me. He has one Jack and ....something else. But, We're going to chop, just like we did in several other hands. So i hesitantly call.

He turns over AJ offsuit. So... I was half right, I just didn't expect him to have that A. He wins with broadway.

I appreciate everyones comments and insight. It helps getting outside perspective, thank you.

 

[Aballinamion]

MP limps in, I have QJ suited (clubs) on the button.

A playable hand, depending on the situation.

So I bumped it to 3x

We should go for more here. 3.5x or 4x.

BB, the villain, raises it up

BB raises up to how much blinds????

This is what he does to me. I have odds,

Do we have odds? Prove it to me using mathematics, please.

I'm calling to at least see the flop.

You said before that you called because you had the proper odds. Now you say that you called to see a flop... Well, we do not call to see flops, NEVER! We do call because we believe we have odds and that our hand will have a good playability postflop. On top of that we call because we think that we can overplay our opponent to make mistakes. We never "call to see".

Pot: 50 BB
To my surprise, SB calls and so does BB and so does MP... OK, here we go.

Flop comes 9 h 10 h 6 c

In a situation like this we believe that all of the players have around 25% equity give or take.

river is Q s

it checks around to me a second time. I thought about it a second. I bet half the pot. It double checked to me there's definitely no strength there. I have top pair, plus the open ended straight draw. I genuinlly feel I have the best hand now and I have much room for improvement.

If the turn is a king of hearts, we might have 58% equity here give or take. But if we turn is a queen of spades the situation doesn't change, we still own 25% equity. Hard to say because in this case the order that the cards appear change our equity drastically.

Pot: 100 BB

Turn comes K h

Before the graphics even finish settling on the screen, villain goes all in for the remainder stack. 75 BB

I'm not sure about the order of the cards, but we still own 50% equity in a scenario like this but there is a huge chance that any of those had complete a flush. So the best course of action here is to fold our straight.