$400 NLHE Full Ring: Live 1/3 - Spewy bluff or fine?

C

c0rnBr34d

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After a LONG 12 months of no live poker I got my first session in a few weeks ago (finally got my shots). It's been a few weeks and this is from memory so it could be a bit off. Limited reads but I'd been at the table for 45 mins or so. 7 handed, plexiglass, masks, etc.

UTG V is middle aged guy. I think he covers. Seemed pretty ABC but spotted bet sizing mistakes, overcalls vs small bets, overfolds vs large bets, too many limps pre... He opens for $10 (smaller side for this table). 2 callers.

Hero is in SB about $450 effective with 9d5d. A clear fold but the BB is a long time poker buddy of mine who has perhaps a 2% 3B range so if ever we were to make a bad / speculative call with a suited 3 gapper at least we wont get squeezed often.

BB calls as expected and also covers.

Flop (~$45 after rake): Jh 8h 3d
Not ideal, but it checks around. V had been c-betting a lot, prob like 80%+ and with a flush draw on board it seems his range is capped.

Turn ($45): Jh 8h 3d Th
We turn the OESD but the flush comes in. I think we have to check here with 4 players behind. BB checks, V bets $20, fold, fold. It's already a bit off the rails pre but here's where I decide to x/r. I hadn't planned to x/r before hand but given the action I'm pretty confident no one has much of a hand. SB is leading turn with anything decent and V is c-betting almost all of his over pairs, sets, top pairs, and flush draws. So that leaves him with a lot of middling hands and a few weird T8 two pair type hands. But even T8 will be in a tough spot if we continue on most rivers. So we make it $65 with a one card OESD on a flush board, repping the flush and strong combo draws and planning to continue unless another heart hits or the board pairs. We block some straights so we can also have 97 or Q9 along with 2 pair and flushes for value. SB folds. V tanks for about 15 seconds then calls. My read is that he has something but is legitimately concerned about straights / flushes. Maybe a pair and a decent heart like KhTx or something.

River ($175): Jh 8h 3d Th 4s
We miss the straight but it's a pretty safe river card. We have to bet to win or x/f and give up. Hero bets $135 to put pressure on Vs Tx hands. V should have to fold most of his range here right?


Thoughts on post flop?
 
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eetenor

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After a LONG 12 months of no live poker I got my first session in a few weeks ago (finally got my shots). It's been a few weeks and this is from memory so it could be a bit off. Limited reads but I'd been at the table for 45 mins or so. 7 handed, plexiglass, masks, etc.

UTG V is middle aged guy. I think he covers. Seemed pretty ABC but spotted bet sizing mistakes, overcalls vs small bets, overfolds vs large bets, too many limps pre... He opens for $10 (smaller side for this table). 2 callers.

Hero is in SB about $450 effective with 9d5d. A clear fold but the BB is a long time poker buddy of mine who has perhaps a 2% 3B range so if ever we were to make a bad / speculative call with a suited 3 gapper at least we wont get squeezed often.

BB calls as expected and also covers.

Flop (~$45 after rake): Jh 8h 3d
Not ideal, but it checks around. V had been c-betting a lot, prob like 80%+ and with a flush draw on board it seems his range is capped.

Turn ($45): Jh 8h 3d Th
We turn the OESD but the flush comes in. I think we have to check here with 4 players behind. BB checks, V bets $20, fold, fold. It's already a bit off the rails pre but here's where I decide to x/r. I hadn't planned to x/r before hand but given the action I'm pretty confident no one has much of a hand. SB is leading turn with anything decent and V is c-betting almost all of his over pairs, sets, top pairs, and flush draws. So that leaves him with a lot of middling hands and a few weird T8 two pair type hands. But even T8 will be in a tough spot if we continue on most rivers. So we make it $65 with a one card OESD on a flush board, repping the flush and strong combo draws and planning to continue unless another heart hits or the board pairs. We block some straights so we can also have 97 or Q9 along with 2 pair and flushes for value. SB folds. V tanks for about 15 seconds then calls. My read is that he has something but is legitimately concerned about straights / flushes. Maybe a pair and a decent heart like KhTx or something.

River ($175): Jh 8h 3d Th 4s
We miss the straight but it's a pretty safe river card. We have to bet to win or x/f and give up. Hero bets $135 to put pressure on Vs Tx hands. V should have to fold most of his range here right?


Thoughts on post flop?

Thank you for posting.


In a game where we have a definite skill advantage versus the field and can get max value from made hands and steal pots easily when in position. Why are we bothering to play in the worst position on the table with a suited 3 gapper. If you build on quicksand it does not matter how good the foundation and structure are you will sink more often than not.


Flop -suddenly a V does what they seldom do and we decide to range them based on what they have done in the past? New is new why did they check this time?

Turn- Why does the V bet now? You are an agg player they would now that by now why would they think you would fold not check raise?

V thinks for 15 seconds but this is a dude that over folds to aggression there are straights and flushes possible as you pointed out but they call.

V limps too much but we think they might have small raised T8 combos UTG ?

It is great that you are thinking about the combos we want to get to fold but does this dude even have 20% of those combos as played?

If you won great but why make it so hard on yourself?
Live poker is easier than this. Let them give you money.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
C

c0rnBr34d

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In a game where we have a definite skill advantage versus the field and can get max value from made hands and steal pots easily when in position. Why are we bothering to play in the worst position on the table with a suited 3 gapper. If you build on quicksand it does not matter how good the foundation and structure are you will sink more often than not.

Flop -suddenly a V does what they seldom do and we decide to range them based on what they have done in the past? New is new why did they check this time?

Turn- Why does the V bet now? You are an agg player they would now that by now why would they think you would fold not check raise?

V thinks for 15 seconds but this is a dude that over folds to aggression there are straights and flushes possible as you pointed out but they call.

V limps too much but we think they might have small raised T8 combos UTG ?

It is great that you are thinking about the combos we want to get to fold but does this dude even have 20% of those combos as played?

If you won great but why make it so hard on yourself?
Live poker is easier than this. Let them give you money.
LOL, I kind of expected this response. I agree pre flop is indefensible. If I were reviewing this hand I'd probably say something similar. But since I didn't follow my own advice or yours I was more curious about post flop.

In my experience when players cbet too often it makes their checking ranges weaker in general. Obviously V can still check to trap a monster but with this run out those hands seems few and far between.

V could bet turn for a number of reasons. Perhaps they hit the T, perhaps they think their Ace high is good, perhaps they picked up a heart draw, they could be betting an under pair like 77. The point was, I think his line has more medium and weak strength hands than big hands. I expect to win the pot outright against a portion of this range and steal the pot on the river against most of the rest of the range unless we get an unfavorable card.

The turn x/r sizing is not that large so his call doesn't mean he will call a large river bet. Also, Hero did not have an aggressive image prior to this hand. Some large pre flop bets over multiple limps and standard continuation bets were made but no large post flop bets or notable show downs from Hero thus far.

The T8s small UTG raise may be a bit optimistic. I was just brainstorming what the stronger combos V could have might be. Probably a long shot, but for non positionally aware players who knows.

I concede that I created a ridiculous spot by making a bad overcall pre, it's fair if you want to respond that it's not worth trying to analyze decisions after that, but for those who don't mind I am curious about the post flop decisions.
 
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gustav197poker

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Your size OTR seems reasonable to me, but I would possibly put it more into practice when the duel is online. I would consider a much larger size in a live game. Considering that V overfolds, I would lean towards overbetting here, to balance a bit with its OTT calling range. Which by definition should be more decent. For example more draws. (assuming V is ABC). However, if we start from the fact that V plays wider from UTG, you range interferes in a part of the limper openings from that position, such as: Axs and Kxs. So if we assume such a scenario (V can limp many speculative hands) it seems a bit strange that we couldn't take him down OTT, when we knew that BB had the blockers advantage here.
For all these reasons, I prefer the OTR most aggressive line possible, if we have decided a deviation in our defense preflop.
Greetings.
 
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Sidetracked

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You do think about poker well, but your actions, when playing low limit live, should be more value orientated.

I just got back from playing 1/3 in Vegas at 3 different rooms. For the most part, those players are really trying to give you their money. You don't even have to do anything clever.
 
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eetenor

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LOL, I kind of expected this response. I agree pre flop is indefensible. If I were reviewing this hand I'd probably say something similar. But since I didn't follow my own advice or yours I was more curious about post flop.

In my experience when players cbet too often it makes their checking ranges weaker in general. Obviously V can still check to trap a monster but with this run out those hands seems few and far between.

V could bet turn for a number of reasons. Perhaps they hit the T, perhaps they think their Ace high is good, perhaps they picked up a heart draw, they could be betting an under pair like 77. The point was, I think his line has more medium and weak strength hands than big hands. I expect to win the pot outright against a portion of this range and steal the pot on the river against most of the rest of the range unless we get an unfavorable card.

The turn x/r sizing is not that large so his call doesn't mean he will call a large river bet. Also, Hero did not have an aggressive image prior to this hand. Some large pre flop bets over multiple limps and standard continuation bets were made but no large post flop bets or notable show downs from Hero thus far.

The T8s small UTG raise may be a bit optimistic. I was just brainstorming what the stronger combos V could have might be. Probably a long shot, but for non positionally aware players who knows.

I concede that I created a ridiculous spot by making a bad overcall pre, it's fair if you want to respond that it's not worth trying to analyze decisions after that, but for those who don't mind I am curious about the post flop decisions.




Thank you for responding

All your points are good. Your ranges are all possible and the villain makes mistakes we can take advantage of. While straight forward play live has a good ROI we do want to try to win pots we do not deserve.

So how do we attack this Villain in this spot.

You mentioned the V chases smaller bets and folds to larger bets. So on the turn our sizing can be larger so that we can be even larger on the river. We are attacking the V's thinking not just their range. We have all seen V's fold big hands because of fear of loss so you may even be able to get this guy to fold TT on the river.

So if you think the V has the range you describe and the tendencies they have folding to big bets but chasing small -than polarized sizing would seem to get more fold frequency.

So pot is 65 we call 20 pot 85 we only raise 40 more 65 total. This would seem to be a minimum XR to 85 (as per V tendencies) and then a river bet of 75% or greater.
At your sizing V fears better hands but V might think we are XR top pair draw.
At the larger sizing V might think damn this guy knows I hit that turn but he is still betting 200 on the river. Why me?

We are expecting this V to fear monsters so we want to make it look like value on the river at the larger sizing- so if we small turn -big river we could get hero called by a wider range as that looks bluffy. This V may play scared so of course they would think we do too. Small turn XR bigger river as a bluff is something they would do so we get called by them more often. This is after all not a GTO player so MDF considerations or small bets being more value is not the way this player seems to be thinking.

They fear the big bet so hit them with the big bet turn big bet river.
Yes we lose a bigger pot but if we think we can win this pot with aggression this is the most likely way this V folds more of their range on the river.

To clarify Yes your sizing will get V to fold X range on the river weak Tx Ax flush draw on turn etc but all that folds to the larger sizing plus the V folds some % of 2 pair hands- why me again I make 2 pair and they make better- and some % of sets and even straights if the V does actually fear the big bet.

All this is dependent on this V having the range as you defined it of course.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
Live poker boredom at work I guess? :)

Flop
Missed completely obviously in check-fold mode.

Turn
I would still be in check-fold mode. I dont like continuing on monotone boards without a strong flushdraw or a set. Hands that can make the nuts. Not saying this mean, I am folding everything else, but this hand is not even a bluff catcher, since you have 9 high. Yes you have an OESD, but two of your outs will put out a 1-liner to a flush, and you could be drawing dead. So this is not a hand, I am taking as a check-call to any substantial bet, and I am not leading out either.

You check, as you should, and now OR puts in a delayed C-bet. So lets put him on a range. I think, he would have bet his overpairs, TPTK and sets on the flop, so those hands are no longer in his range. Q9 and 97 are pretty unlikely, since he opened UTG, but maybe he can have one or two suited combos, that turned a straight. He can certainly have some flushes, especially the nut flush. With 5 people to the flop, there is not to much point in betting with a draw.

He can have TT for the turned set, and maybe he can have a few two pair combos with JTs and T8s. So all in all his value range is two pair or better, and a decent amount of it is the nut flush. Then he might also have some bluffs, and the most logical ones would be hands like AK or AQ with A of hearts, since these hands picked up a pile of equity on the turn. I am not super excited about bluffing this kind of range, because some players have a really tough time folding two pair or better. And this mean, you are basically only trying to get him off his bluffs like those AK or AQ with the A of hearts.

River
Given the range, I put him on, you have to bet here again and get him off those A high hands, which you still lose to. Since those hands are your main target, I dont think, you need to go quite a big, as you did though. Those hands are probably not hero calling any size, and on the other side two pair or better are not folding to any normal size. So he should be very inelastic here, and then its basically a question of, how small you can go without making him suspicious.
 
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gustav197poker

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I have some additional comments for this hand.
It seems that the hero had solid information about his partner, the BB. That is, after the small opening of UTG and the check OTF line, hero's perception pointed to hands of type Axs and Kxs, a greater number of times in the range of BB. From that point of view, I can understand a smaller OTT raise size, to get more exploitive folds from this player. Although it is also true, that it is less likely to achieve a isolation with the opener, in a table where there is more flexibility in the ranges of continuation of the villains, in a live: 1/3. (I didn't get a chance to experience 1/3. I've played quite a bit on 5/5 and I can imagine what 1/3 would be like). So with the x / r OTT line, we also seek to exploit our perception of range at the table (we are not aggressive, in the eyes of others. At least we have not shown it in 45 minutes of play). Therefore, our perceived range should be strong here.
The next question is: What hands do we expect UTG to call us OTT.
From our OTF (capped range of V) appreciation, we can imagine some floating pairs in the UTG range. But when we raise, we eliminate a lot of them. And only hands that now have medium strength will continue, either because of their implied odds of improvement, or because of their current value (we are compensating some semi bluffs at rank V, by unlocking 9h-9 and 7h-7).
OTR and continuing with our exploitative line, we want the villain to think that we want to make him believe that we make a great OTR bluff (overbet jam), so that he will pay us with all his marginal hands. But we actually represent a very strong hand here, as we didn't care about our OTT line and with many active players in the hand, we applied a small raise size.
 
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gustav197poker

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Returning again, this is the typical place where the more marginal our hand is, the better the effect we are looking for with our exploitative line will be. For example, a hand like 2-4s would work even better here, because it allows a greater number of middle pockets in V, which would increase OTR his range of fold equity . What makes me think is the UTG check, in this pot many players OTF. It seems that he does not want to induce bluffs from any position. But then the V after his bet and his call to our turn x/r is trying to represent a strong range. Therefore we need to apply a lot of pressure. Because if we were wrong in our range assignment, someone like that might even call with AK, when he has no hearts and our river size is small. Maybe V wants to take advantage of his passive image, to unnerve the actions of his rivals and get a cheap showdown, or he did indeed get his big hand and he wants to show himself weak. But they are risks that sometimes need to be taken.
 
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gustav197poker

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After a LONG 12 months of no live poker I got my first session in a few weeks ago (finally got my shots). It's been a few weeks and this is from memory so it could be a bit off. Limited reads but I'd been at the table for 45 mins or so. 7 handed, plexiglass, masks, etc.

UTG V is middle aged guy. I think he covers. Seemed pretty ABC but spotted bet sizing mistakes, overcalls vs small bets, overfolds vs large bets, too many limps pre... He opens for $10 (smaller side for this table). 2 callers.

Hero is in SB about $450 effective with 9d5d. A clear fold but the BB is a long time poker buddy of mine who has perhaps a 2% 3B range so if ever we were to make a bad / speculative call with a suited 3 gapper at least we wont get squeezed often.

BB calls as expected and also covers.

Flop (~$45 after rake): Jh 8h 3d
Not ideal, but it checks around. V had been c-betting a lot, prob like 80%+ and with a flush draw on board it seems his range is capped.

Turn ($45): Jh 8h 3d Th
We turn the OESD but the flush comes in. I think we have to check here with 4 players behind. BB checks, V bets $20, fold, fold. It's already a bit off the rails pre but here's where I decide to x/r. I hadn't planned to x/r before hand but given the action I'm pretty confident no one has much of a hand. SB is leading turn with anything decent and V is c-betting almost all of his over pairs, sets, top pairs, and flush draws. So that leaves him with a lot of middling hands and a few weird T8 two pair type hands. But even T8 will be in a tough spot if we continue on most rivers. So we make it $65 with a one card OESD on a flush board, repping the flush and strong combo draws and planning to continue unless another heart hits or the board pairs. We block some straights so we can also have 97 or Q9 along with 2 pair and flushes for value. SB folds. V tanks for about 15 seconds then calls. My read is that he has something but is legitimately concerned about straights / flushes. Maybe a pair and a decent heart like KhTx or something.

River ($175): Jh 8h 3d Th 4s
We miss the straight but it's a pretty safe river card. We have to bet to win or x/f and give up. Hero bets $135 to put pressure on Vs Tx hands. V should have to fold most of his range here right?


Thoughts on post flop?



Your hand here it would come as a finger ring:

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/5qNAwQu
 
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gustav197poker

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Now THAT's a bluff! Lol how did you make it to the river?

I should have folded as maximum OTT. But since V could have spades maybe he was aiming for that part of his range. I think JJ-TT was the part of values that I wanted to press more of V. It's an old hand but It reminded me the 5-9s lol
 
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