IPlay
Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
I'm not trying to be results oriented but this hand is a PERFECT example of why limping 54s sucks. The reverse implied odds far out weigh the implied odds. We are rarely playing a big pot postflop when we are going 5 handed to a flop with a flush or two pair unless we are beat! Now if we raise and go heads up or maybe 3 handed to the flop the chances of being dominated by a better flush/two pair/trips drops significantly. The only good hand we can make is a straight which still gives us a good chance of being on the "idiot end" of that straight, although much more rare then the flush/two pair scenarios.
Now think of the times we flop a draw. We are not going to be able to bluff much since the flops we hit(low and wet) also hit a lot of other limpers. Also the pot is $10 so if we do choose to bluff the flop it is going to take a bet of $15-20 because live players rarely fold anything post flop for less then a $10 bet. If this is the case, why don't we just raise to $15 pre so we can bluff many more flops and make a lot more money???
Now think of all the times we do flop a draw and put more money in the pot post only to miss OR hit and don't get paid. Or the times were someone does bet and we are feeling frisky and try to bluff only to be called by a draw that has us crushed. RIO suck. Lets also not forget that many live players overbet the pot in limped pots(ex. 5 limpers so pot is $10 pre. Most players are betting $15 here and then BAM we are now priced out with our draw and calling is another mistake.)
I'm assuming people that are limping this hand on the button are the same ones that always complete their small blind with J3s because "it's only a dollar". Just because "it's only $x" doesn't mean the call is correct. No limit cash is a post flop game.
Depending on the game Fold>Raise>Limp, Raise>Fold>Limp. If you are going to limp along on the button in 5 way pots atleast do it with hands that make the near nuts. 22/J10o/A6s/K4s(maybe)/98s etc. No need to lower your standards to that of a regular live fish.
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M
Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
Live poker certainly not dead. Folding preflop is a mistake. This is the type of hand you want to play in limped pots 6 way live. You literally never invest a ton unless your huge. It's the but easiest hand to play in a 6 way limped pot and ya know position
The only reason this hand looks weird is because OP completely butchered the flop.
The only reason this hand looks weird is because OP completely butchered the flop.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
I don't mind this, assuming H is a solid hand reader, and a solid postflop player. But, if we can't navigate profitably postflop, it couldn't possibly hurt to wait for easier spots.
IPlay
Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Isn't raising on the button just plain better though? What huge hand are we going to make in a 6 way pot with 54s? I get it that we are in position and we are able to pot control if we want but then you got to ask yourself if you make a flush and need to pot control maybe you should not have even played that hand in the first place? I think we would need some whales to be on the table to justify a limp here and OP described the players at the table as regs, which isn't saying much in a low stakes live game but still. I think we need someone that is just dumping stacks to justify a limp.
FWIW I had a feeling Marginal or Duggs was going to come in here and call us nits
Here is a quote from the very unlikable yet legend on the live felt, Abe Limon. I would post a source but I am not sure if that is allowed, I'm sure you could google it. The entire post is actually a great read.
"Notes: 4c5c is “any two cards”. Trouble hands go up in value once the money gets really deep. If your plan is to raise in position and then pick up the pot on the flop be sure youre in w/ an opponent who will go along with that plan. If your plan is to call out of the BB, flop a hand and then felt your opponent be sure youre in w/ an opponent who will go along with that plan. "
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M
Marginal
Junior Member
Silver Level
Raising is infinitely worse because this is low stakes live, no one is possibly going to fold. So all you've done is gone from a 12£ 6 way preflop to 5 way £60 pot. Congrats on bloating the pot but again no one is folding so it's not great for us to do jt. Having position means we have enough control as it is, don't need to raise here to get any.
IPlay
Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
teepack
Legend
Bronze Level
Wow what a great discussion.
I would limp 5-4 all day if I were on a similar table and in late position like I was. Limping was the norm at this table, and each hand usually went 4 or 5 to the flop. If I had raised it to, say $10 pre-flop, the same 5 players would have called, so the raise would have accomplished nothing.
I don't think my flop bet was terrible considering I was ahead at the time. My only regret is betting the river and then calling his re-raise. Next time I'll just check and be happy with a $35 pot if I win instead of trying to get more.
I would limp 5-4 all day if I were on a similar table and in late position like I was. Limping was the norm at this table, and each hand usually went 4 or 5 to the flop. If I had raised it to, say $10 pre-flop, the same 5 players would have called, so the raise would have accomplished nothing.
I don't think my flop bet was terrible considering I was ahead at the time. My only regret is betting the river and then calling his re-raise. Next time I'll just check and be happy with a $35 pot if I win instead of trying to get more.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
The only suggestion I have is this....
If 5 players will call $10, raise to $20. You need to find the sweet-spot for that table, at that moment, with those villains.
You need to adjust raise sizes in live poker frequently to make sure you are not seeing 5w+ flops.
That stuff about raising the same size every time, I don't really believe in that at low limit live games. The opponents are usually just terrible rec players, and don't notice anything anyways. Some tables though, there is no sweet spot. People are just so loose preflop, they'll call anything. That's rare though.
The other day there was one limper, and I raised to $25 on 1/2. I got 2 callers. That was the sweet-spot. $25 was it.
So whether I have AA, or 8-7s OTB, I am trying to continually define, and utilize the sweet spot for PFR size.
But it's whatever. If you want to limp in, and play small ball, that's fine too I guess. But we really can't win the pot unless we make a monster that way. We are going to SD, one way or the other.
S
Simplex
Rock Star
Silver Level
Can make it simple-- Its a fold with 54 on a J 9 5 A 4 board facing a 3X reraise. And yeah, I wouldn't have bet the 25 into two other guys most times with the 54. Too many AX (Ace 4,5,9, J suited ) , sets and the occasional 23 that could reraise. Granted , a 23 is pretty unlikely.
IPlay
Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Uggh this thread is so tilting. If we shouldn't bet when we river 2 pair and it is checked to us then why are we even calling preflop???
mbrenneman0
Legend
Silver Level
That's every live game.
If $15 gets 5 callers then open to $20. If that doesn't get you heads up then open to $25.
Also 54 is a terrible hand. What flops can you realistically hope for that you can take to the river? Almost any flop with a Broadway card in it is a hand you have to give up on facing action even if you do pair your 5 or your 4
That being said I do like the river bet, I think calling the raise might be okay but we are beat a lot of times by the raise.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
J
jsh169
Visionary
Silver Level
I don't hate the flop raise you have position, why not inflate a small pot when your in the best position in the house. River is a clear raise (bet/fold), if you decide to not betting this your missing TONS of value in other spots on the river.