€4 NLHE 6-max: Top pair raised on flop, 3 bet pot, no reads

[GreenDaddy1]

Started playing on unibet. Cash ticket for welcome bonus seemed worth a punt, and pushing to see how much of the playthrough bonus i can actually achieve.

No HUD definitely proving tricky at times though. The worst players reveal themselves very quickly. The passive calling stations are not far behind. It is figuring out the difference between, and ranges of, the good and bad regs that is proving the hardest by far.

Case in point is the following hand. Seat 5 is a bluffy fish. Seat 3 I have no solid reads on at all. I 3 bet to hopefully isolate the fish but both come along.

Flop is decent giving me TPTK, and has some draws out there which could allow me to get some value with my TPTK. Against villain 5 I am happy to get my money in quickly, unless the turn really stinks. But villain 3... I'm not sure what his 3 bet calling range is.

So anyway both the turn and the fish become irrelevant because Villain 3 raises me smallish, and convincing myself that this is just another guy getting aggressive with a draw I jam. (Population here at unibet so far seems to be playing draws very aggressively.)

Well egg on my face, he made the reasonable call against my 3 bet with 88 and played for immediate value after hitting his set. Fair enough. Got the suck out here and felt a bit silly.

This hand highlights what I am missing perhaps most of all from my HUD stats, info in regards to people making and calling 3 bets. Any thoughts on the best strategy to adopt in a HUDless environment? I've narrowed my 3 bet, my 3 bet call and my 4 bet ranges significantly and taken out any bluffs too, to become very value heavy. The one thing I cannot control though is villain ranges vs 3 bet.
What is the best assumption going to be? I don't want to overreact based on one hand, but perhaps unless I have a definite read that someone is loose or fishy I should be assuming tight 3 bet calling ranges along the lines of 88-JJ, AQ & AJs? Doing so vs unknowns might then simplify my decision making in spots like this when he raises on the flop. There are no decent draws in that range at all here, so raising with a set becomes much more likely.



Game #1508709222: Table €4 NL - 0.02/0.04 - No Limit Hold'Em - 10:38:38 2021/06/21
*** Seated players ***
Seat 1: HERO (€6.18)
Seat 2: allayavbar (€6.56)
Seat 3: DevilLuffy (€4.01)
Seat 4: GUZENK0 (€8.86)
Seat 5: AAthony1717 (€2.89)
Seat 6: Thorhem (€1.72)
*** Blinds and button ***
Thorhem has the button
HERO posts small blind €0.02
allayavbar posts big blind €0.04
*** Hole cards ***
Dealt to HERO [As Kd]
Dealt in allayavbar
Dealt to DevilLuffy [X X]
Dealt in GUZENK0
Dealt in AAthony1717
Dealt in Thorhem
*** Preflop ***
DevilLuffy raises €0.12 to €0.12
GUZENK0 folds
AAthony1717 calls €0.12
Thorhem folds
HERO raises €0.50 to €0.52
allayavbar folds
DevilLuffy calls €0.40
AAthony1717 calls €0.40
*** Flop *** [9c Ah 8h]
HERO bets €0.80
DevilLuffy raises €1.60 to €1.60
AAthony1717 folds
HERO raises €4.86 to €5.66, and is all-in
DevilLuffy calls €1.89, and is all-in
Uncalled bet returned to HERO: €2.17
*** Showdown ***
*** Turn *** [9c Ah 8h] 9♠
*** River *** [9c Ah 8h] 9♠ A♦
HERO shows [As Kd], Full House, Aces full
DevilLuffy shows [8d 8s], Full House, Eights full
HERO wins €8.41
*** Summary ***
Total pot €8.58 Rake €0.17
Seat 1: HERO: bet €6.18 and won €10.58, net result: €4.40
Seat 2: allayavbar: bet €0.04 and won €0, net result: €-0.04
Seat 3: DevilLuffy: bet €4.01 and won €0, net result: €-4.01
Seat 5: AAthony1717: bet €0.52 and won €0, net result: €-0.52

 

[gustav197poker]

Yes, the UTG opener's preflop calling range feels like 99+. In addition, since you do not have a preliminary reference pattern, we should assume that they are micro stake standard players. But if you've observed something that made you suspicious, I could understand that flop push. But I don't think it is a fixed rule, much less a recommendation, when the villain should have the greatest strength on this type of board, with his opening range.
Greetings.

 

[Sidetracked]

I think that in a 3 bet pot with top/top I'm playing for stacks without very specific, very tight reads on villain.

 

[eetenor]

Started playing on Unibet. Cash ticket for welcome bonus seemed worth a punt, and pushing to see how much of the playthrough bonus i can actually achieve.

No HUD definitely proving tricky at times though. The worst players reveal themselves very quickly. The passive calling stations are not far behind. It is figuring out the difference between, and ranges of, the good and bad regs that is proving the hardest by far.

Case in point is the following hand. Seat 5 is a bluffy fish. Seat 3 I have no solid reads on at all. I 3 bet to hopefully isolate the fish but both come along.

Flop is decent giving me TPTK, and has some draws out there which could allow me to get some value with my TPTK. Against villain 5 I am happy to get my money in quickly, unless the turn really stinks. But villain 3... I'm not sure what his 3 bet calling range is.

So anyway both the turn and the fish become irrelevant because Villain 3 raises me smallish, and convincing myself that this is just another guy getting aggressive with a draw I jam. (Population here at unibet so far seems to be playing draws very aggressively.)

Well egg on my face, he made the reasonable call against my 3 bet with 88 and played for immediate value after hitting his set. Fair enough. Got the suck out here and felt a bit silly.

This hand highlights what I am missing perhaps most of all from my HUD stats, info in regards to people making and calling 3 bets. Any thoughts on the best strategy to adopt in a HUDless environment? I've narrowed my 3 bet, my 3 bet call and my 4 bet ranges significantly and taken out any bluffs too, to become very value heavy. The one thing I cannot control though is villain ranges vs 3 bet.
What is the best assumption going to be? I don't want to overreact based on one hand, but perhaps unless I have a definite read that someone is loose or fishy I should be assuming tight 3 bet calling ranges along the lines of 88-JJ, AQ & AJs? Doing so vs unknowns might then simplify my decision making in spots like this when he raises on the flop. There are no decent draws in that range at all here, so raising with a set becomes much more likely.



Game #1508709222: Table €4 NL - 0.02/0.04 - No Limit Hold'Em - 10:38:38 2021/06/21
*** Seated players ***
Seat 1: HERO (€6.18)
Seat 2: allayavbar (€6.56)
Seat 3: DevilLuffy (€4.01)
Seat 4: GUZENK0 (€8.86)
Seat 5: AAthony1717 (€2.89)
Seat 6: Thorhem (€1.72)
*** Blinds and button ***
Thorhem has the button
HERO posts small blind €0.02
allayavbar posts big blind €0.04
*** Hole cards ***
Dealt to HERO [As Kd]
Dealt in allayavbar
Dealt to DevilLuffy [X X]
Dealt in GUZENK0
Dealt in AAthony1717
Dealt in Thorhem
*** Preflop ***
DevilLuffy raises €0.12 to €0.12
GUZENK0 folds
AAthony1717 calls €0.12
Thorhem folds
HERO raises €0.50 to €0.52
allayavbar folds
DevilLuffy calls €0.40
AAthony1717 calls €0.40
*** Flop *** [9c Ah 8h]
HERO bets €0.80
DevilLuffy raises €1.60 to €1.60
AAthony1717 folds
HERO raises €4.86 to €5.66, and is all-in
DevilLuffy calls €1.89, and is all-in
Uncalled bet returned to HERO: €2.17
*** Showdown ***
*** Turn *** [9c Ah 8h] 9♠
*** River *** [9c Ah 8h] 9♠ A♦
HERO shows [As Kd], Full House, Aces full
DevilLuffy shows [8d 8s], Full House, Eights full
HERO wins €8.41
*** Summary ***
Total pot €8.58 Rake €0.17
Seat 1: HERO: bet €6.18 and won €10.58, net result: €4.40
Seat 2: allayavbar: bet €0.04 and won €0, net result: €-0.04
Seat 3: DevilLuffy: bet €4.01 and won €0, net result: €-4.01
Seat 5: AAthony1717: bet €0.52 and won €0, net result: €-0.52

Thank you for posting

Without a HUD we need to read players actions based on what the action most often indicates. At this buy-in level sophisticated lines are very uncommon.

A raise of any kind in a 3 bet pot most often indicates a willingness to not fold.
So a min raise on that board most often indicates strength. Why? The ACE is a scare card for KK etc so if the V wants to semi-bluff they raise bigger or they just call with draws. The pot is already big so no need to min raise to get stacks in on later streets when you are drawing and the player pool over plays top pair. Which means the player pool sees fewer folds, so they start making fewer bluffs, so we know the Villains make more value raises and they love to min the nuts.

Again most often not always this will be the case, we need reads to assume otherwise which you did not have at this time.

By the way did you know you had 1.9% equity on the flop?:icon_sant
Do you have Equilab this would be a great hand for you to find out what your over all equity is versus V range so that you can refine what your actions should be when raised in a similar spot

Hope this helps.

 

[John A]

Poker rule: In MW pots, if an opponent raises, especially w/ players left to act, when they would have benefited more by just calling w/ a draw, they probably don't have many (if any) draws in their range.

I would have folded this flop and not thought much of it honestly. The guy did you a favor by making a bad play.

 

[GreenDaddy1]

Thanks. Always good seeing the different responses.

So here is another example, where unknown villain is aggressive with a draw, which I'm seeing a lot of. Different situation here and not a 3 bet pot. So how about this one?


Game #1509432142: Table €4 NL - 0.02/0.04 - No Limit Hold'Em - 16:49:16 2021/06/22
*** Seated players ***
Seat 1: psrquak (€0.62)
Seat 2: Dgupo (€6.17)
Seat 3: BadTeacher (€2.21)
Seat 4: y27virag68 (€4.03)
Seat 5: anagyhohoo (€2.28)
Seat 6: HERO (€6.20)
*** Blinds and button ***
HERO has the button
psrquak posts small blind €0.02
Dgupo posts big blind €0.04
*** Hole cards ***
Dealt in psrquak
Dealt to Dgupo [6s Ts]
Dealt in BadTeacher
Dealt in y27virag68
Dealt in anagyhohoo
Dealt to HERO [Qh Qs]
*** Preflop ***
BadTeacher folds
y27virag68 folds
anagyhohoo folds
HERO raises €0.10 to €0.10
psrquak folds
Dgupo calls €0.06
*** Flop *** [2s 9s 3c]
Dgupo checks
HERO bets €0.11
Dgupo raises €0.40 to €0.40
HERO calls €0.29
*** Turn *** [2s 9s 3c] [2h]
Dgupo bets €0.62
HERO calls €0.62
*** River *** [2s 9s 3c] [2h] [Jh]
Dgupo checks
HERO checks
*** Showdown ***
Dgupo shows [6s Ts], A Pair of Deuces
HERO shows [Qh Qs], Two pairs, Queens up
HERO wins €2.21
*** Summary ***
Total pot €2.26 Rake €0.05
Seat 1: psrquak: bet €0.02 and won €0, net result: €-0.02
Seat 2: Dgupo: bet €1.12 and won €0, net result: €-1.12
Seat 6: HERO: bet €1.12 and won €2.21, net result: €1.09


The flop is dry, the turn a brick. Felt I had to call both. Thoughts?

 

[eetenor]

Thanks. Always good seeing the different responses.

So here is another example, where unknown villain is aggressive with a draw, which I'm seeing a lot of. Different situation here and not a 3 bet pot. So how about this one?


Game #1509432142: Table €4 NL - 0.02/0.04 - No Limit Hold'Em - 16:49:16 2021/06/22
*** Seated players ***
Seat 1: psrquak (€0.62)
Seat 2: Dgupo (€6.17)
Seat 3: BadTeacher (€2.21)
Seat 4: y27virag68 (€4.03)
Seat 5: anagyhohoo (€2.28)
Seat 6: HERO (€6.20)
*** Blinds and button ***
HERO has the button
psrquak posts small blind €0.02
Dgupo posts big blind €0.04
*** Hole cards ***
Dealt in psrquak
Dealt to Dgupo [6s Ts]
Dealt in BadTeacher
Dealt in y27virag68
Dealt in anagyhohoo
Dealt to HERO [Qh Qs]
*** Preflop ***
BadTeacher folds
y27virag68 folds
anagyhohoo folds
HERO raises €0.10 to €0.10
psrquak folds
Dgupo calls €0.06
*** Flop *** [2s 9s 3c]
Dgupo checks
HERO bets €0.11
Dgupo raises €0.40 to €0.40
HERO calls €0.29
*** Turn *** [2s 9s 3c] 2♥
Dgupo bets €0.62
HERO calls €0.62
*** River *** [2s 9s 3c] 2♥ J♥
Dgupo checks
HERO checks
*** Showdown ***
Dgupo shows [6s Ts], A Pair of Deuces
HERO shows [Qh Qs], Two pairs, Queens up
HERO wins €2.21
*** Summary ***
Total pot €2.26 Rake €0.05
Seat 1: psrquak: bet €0.02 and won €0, net result: €-0.02
Seat 2: Dgupo: bet €1.12 and won €0, net result: €-1.12
Seat 6: HERO: bet €1.12 and won €2.21, net result: €1.09


The flop is dry, the turn a brick. Felt I had to call both. Thoughts?

Thank you for posting.

This is a great example to use to compare to the other. We see a villain check raise a low board and use a 4x not min raise sizing. This type of board V will attack more often as it misses part of your range and they will attack with weaker draws.

As played you have to bet the river. If the V has a 9 or 88 we can get thin value. An AX flush draw might call as well.

Hope this helps

 

[TheBigFinn]

I agree the early position represents strength, and AKo is at best 30% to win and in the worst position at the table. it is a fold pure and simple.why? Because of flops like this.

The, flop A with 2 small cards, is the best Hero could hope for, but he has no idea how the flop hit his opponents because he has to act first. When Villain raises Hero's pot size bet, what does that mean? Is it trips, AA, AK, AQ, a flush draw or a bluff? Hero has no idea. Racing aces is a tie, and trips are a two out dog. Best to avoid the situation early and fold pre.

As played, Villain will likely call with a reasonably big ace,and a flush draw given the odds as well as trips and Hero goes the turn all in as a dog. Not a good look. As played Hero sucks out one of the two reaiming aces and wins, but it was not well played.