25NL; reraised with my AQ from mid

[NineLions]

Poorly played hand on my part, I think.



pokerstars Game #11103965823: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/07/24 - 01:26:14 (ET)
Table 'Baillauda II' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: nealdo56 ($7.80 in chips)
Seat 2: de captain ($9.40 in chips)
Seat 3: mandee1222 ($14.40 in chips)
Seat 4: SuperLurker ($24.45 in chips)
Seat 5: blackhawk28 ($24.05 in chips)
Seat 6: mackdan ($23.95 in chips)
Seat 7: 22777 ($24.30 in chips)
Seat 8: Mentorie ($34.95 in chips)
Seat 9: Ninelions ($20.15 in chips)
SuperLurker: posts small blind $0.10
blackhawk28: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ninelions [Ad Qc]
mackdan: folds
22777: folds
Mentorie: raises $0.25 to $0.50
Ninelions: raises $1 to $1.50
nealdo56: folds
de captain: folds
mandee1222: calls $1.50
SuperLurker: folds
blackhawk28: folds
Mentorie: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [Kd 6c Jd]
Mentorie: checks
Ninelions: bets $1.50
mandee1222: calls $1.50
Mentorie: folds
*** TURN *** [Kd 6c Jd] [Qd]
Ninelions: bets $2
mandee1222: raises $3.25 to $5.25
Ninelions: calls $3.25
*** RIVER *** [Kd 6c Jd Qd] [7h]
Ninelions: bets $2.50
mandee1222: calls $2.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***


Preflop is okay, sad c-bet on the flop, then on the turn. I guess that caused the reraise. I have no idea why I'm calling the reraise, other than the fact that I should have been betting more myself. River is essentially a blocking bet, hoping I won't get raised.


Any disagreements with my critique of myself?


My opponent has position, called my reraise, calls my flop bet, then reraises my turn bet. At this point I'm assuming I'm dead to AK (or some other K; people call with weird holdings at this level), or ahead of Adx. For whatever reason, I don't put on a made flush. Maybe because the reraise is too small, plus the big diamonds are on the table already. Mostly I think I'm losing to a K, which is the reason for the blocking bet on the river.


Other opinions on his holding?

 

[Schatzdog]

Villains hand is strangely played. Big pre-flop over call then the check-call, re-raise on the turn and a flat call on the end.

I don't think he has the flush as he'd surely raise the river. Maybe a weirdly played KQ/KJ/JJ hand. Leaning more to JJ that tried to slowplay.

The c-bet is fine, you represented a big hand pre-flop, but make it bigger. Pot is $4.85 and you lead $1.50. It needs to be around $3-$4. This way if he comes with your pretty sure to be dead and can release.

I bet fold the turn though and given my read I might even check-fold it. I'm pretty much done with this hand on the turn.

 

[NineLions]

Villains hand is strangely played. Big pre-flop over call then the check-call, re-raise on the turn and a flat call on the end.

I don't think he has the flush as he'd surely raise the river. Maybe a weirdly played KQ/KJ/JJ hand. Leaning more to JJ that tried to slowplay.

The c-bet is fine, you represented a big hand pre-flop, but make it bigger. Pot is $4.85 and you lead $1.50. It needs to be around $3-$4. This way if he comes with your pretty sure to be dead and can release.

I bet fold the turn though and given my read I might even check-fold it. I'm pretty much done with this hand on the turn.

Yep, I agree with the strangely played. And the turn looks dangerous; flush, plus AT/T9 has a straight. I was surprised when he just called my small blocking bet on the river.

If I were in his position preflop, I'd be calling with AK, maybe AQ/KQs/QJs. With JJ+ I'd probably reraise just because my reraise was of a min raise so it's almost like just a raise and I'd want to know where I stand. Everything else, including Axs, lower pairs, suited connectors I'd probably fold because it is reraised, even if just over a min raise.


How does that fit with your general standards preflop, Schatzdog?


I guess because of what I'd call with in his situation, and because the K, Q, and J of diamonds are all on the table, I didn't expect the flush.

 

[Schatzdog]

I suppose 8/9 or 9/10 suited may make this call for the implieds against two opponents and in position. I'd probably make this call with PP JJ's and down basically set mining. AA/KK/AK I'd more than likely re-raise. KQ and QJ I'm not playing here.

Did you have any reads heading into this hand? Is Mandee any good, as in, has a good idea of the concepts of implieds, pot control etc...

 

[NineLions]

Not much in the way of reads. Normally I look at most HH that went to showdown to see 1) what they did preflop and 2) how they bet at each street with that holding. If I see something questionable, I note the details. But, nothing on this guy.


I'm interested in the AK reraise that you mention. I'm a wuss with AK. I'll raise, or call a raise in position, but I won't reraise.

By reraising, I'm assuming your looking for a fold, but then you're ready to throw in a c-bet at a missed flop if you're called?

 

[joeeagles]

Villains hand is strangely played. Big pre-flop over call then the check-call, re-raise on the turn and a flat call on the end.

I don't think he has the flush as he'd surely raise the river. Maybe a weirdly played KQ/KJ/JJ hand.

I bet fold the turn though and given my read I might even check-fold it. I'm pretty much done with this hand on the turn.

Yep I agree with all this, including the range. I doubt its AT, and although the hands above are all strong on this board, I think there is no river raise because now he's concerned he might be behind to a flush or straight because you called his reraise on the turn.

Although it's a bit strangely played by villain, it kind of does look consistent with KJ and even better KQ. Both those hands would call a PF raise from the button particularly if suited, and KQ could just smooth call your c-bet on the flop, and with the Q on the turn on a 3 diamond board he'd raise. I think since you called the turn reraise and bet out again on the river he fears you might have him beat so he just calls.

As pointed out by Schatzdog its also consistent with JJ, because even if flop is heavy on draws at times a set will take the chance of getting outdrawn if he thinks he can get more out of you. Not saying its the right play with a set, but I've seen people make risky slowplays and JJ here wouldn't surprise me at all.

NL, although its true the c-bet was too small, but I think the biggest mistake was calling the turn raise. You should be done with the hand at that point and save the extra $5.75 you spent between calling that turn reraise and betting the river. I mean yeah he might have just called the flop c-bet because it was small but after you fired again on the turn with a board that coordinated and he reraises you its time to give him credit for some kind of hand better than yours, unless you know he's tricky like that because he somehow understood you're weak.

About the c-bet believe me I really understand because many times I make this mistake too when I raise PF and hand goes 3-way. The problem that happens in that scenario is that the pot got big so your c-bet has to be ~pot size in order to have an effect, and when you look at that flop its kind of hard to do it when 3-way because you get that feeling that someone must have hit and you're going to get called and you're behind. It's kind of a tough spot to be in. I think the way to look at it is that if you're going to c-bet do it strongly or don't do it, just check. That flop doesn't really look like one you should c-bet into in a 3-way pot, but many may disagree with me on this.

Edit: Apologies NL, I just noticed you have the Ad and his reraise on the turn is giving you almost 5 to 1, so calling his reraise isn't really that bad now. I overlooked that because in the OP you said "I've no idea why I'm calling his reraise" so that kind of derailed me. I think its agreeable that you should call the $3.25 reraise at this point, at at least its not terrible anymore.

 

[NineLions]

Yep I agree with all this, including the range. I doubt its AT, and although the hands above are all strong on this board, I think there is no river raise because now he's concerned he might be behind to a flush or straight because you called his reraise on the turn.

Although it's a bit strangely played by villain, it kind of does look consistent with KJ and even better KQ. Both those hands would call a PF raise from the button particularly if suited, and KQ could just smooth call your c-bet on the flop, and with the Q on the turn on a 3 diamond board he'd raise. I think since you called the turn reraise and bet out again on the river he fears you might have him beat so he just calls.

As pointed out by Schatzdog its also consistent with JJ, because even if flop is heavy on draws at times a set will take the chance of getting outdrawn if he thinks he can get more out of you. Not saying its the right play with a set, but I've seen people make risky slowplays and JJ here wouldn't surprise me at all.

NL, although its true the c-bet was too small, but I think the biggest mistake was calling the turn raise. You should be done with the hand at that point and save the extra $5.75 you spent between calling that turn reraise and betting the river. I mean yeah he might have just called the flop c-bet because it was small but after you fired again on the turn with a board that coordinated and he reraises you its time to give him credit for some kind of hand better than yours, unless you know he's tricky like that because he somehow understood you're weak.

About the c-bet believe me I really understand because many times I make this mistake too when I raise PF and hand goes 3-way. The problem that happens in that scenario is that the pot got big so your c-bet has to be ~pot size in order to have an effect, and when you look at that flop its kind of hard to do it when 3-way because you get that feeling that someone must have hit and you're going to get called and you're behind. It's kind of a tough spot to be in. I think the way to look at it is that if you're going to c-bet do it strongly or don't do it, just check. That flop doesn't really look like one you should c-bet into in a 3-way pot, but many may disagree with me on this.

I still didn't put him on the flush, because of my preflop reraise and because the KQJ were out there. I think what happened is because of my weak bets at the flop and turn, he saw an opportunity to represent the flush/straight and push me off. Not that I was thinking in that detail at the time. Although, if it had been any other diamond on the turn, I probably would have folded. Perhaps this would have been a good way for me to play JJ.


Also, as it turned out, he was playing QTo, no diamonds, so he hit the Q on the turn, and maybe figured me for two weak c-bets. I guess since he had the Q and I bet so weak on the river, he decided to call.

On the flop he had 8 straight draw outs, so calling is fine, but I question his choice to call preflop with that holding. I was going to title this thread "Don't you love it when you play badly and your opponent plays badly as well", but that would have given the result away.


About the c-bet; I know I should have bet more, with both the flush and possible straight draws out there, or, do nothing. But with 2 others in the pot, I felt I could chase at least the other guy, which I did. He minraised preflop, probably called because of pot odds, and had been building his stack by betting at all unbet flops/turns, so I read him for an aggressive small ball player. OOP and with me being the last preflop raiser it's harder for him to play his game, and he would have led at the turn if no-one bet the flop.


Edit: Joe, I just saw your edit and realized I forgotten that I had the Ad; maybe I'm not a stupid as I thought! Though, obviously from my first post, I had forgotten that too since I included Adx in his range!

 

[shark vs fish]

You made a couple of small mistakes here that gave you the problem in the end. Firstly, preflop raise $0.50 to $1.50 isn't very helpful. Anyone would have called. You want to reraise, the amount should be big enough so that villain CAN fold if they choose to. Raise to $2 preflop.

Then on the flop your less-than-half-pot bet again isn't useful. You aren't adding much value nor are you finding out anything about villain's hand. Bet 3/4-to-pot here. That way he only calls with 2-pair, top pair nice kicker or very strong draw. Otherwise, he'd fold.

So say he calls, turn Q is NOT helpful to you here, but very possibly helped villain. You didn't recognize that. Depending on villain's action on the flop, I follow up with same sized bet as flop or check with intention to reraise if he doesn't bet out big. If he makes a huge bet, fold even if you think he's bluffing. Risk/reward tells you that. If he bets small then call. If he checks, you know he's weak and you get a free card to take down the pot on river.

You made small mistakes due to the sizing which gave you the problem of not reading his hand well hence your post. The old addage that "raise big or not raise at all" applies in this case. Only make small bets or reraises for 2 reasons only: to value-bet when you got the nuts, or as a blocking bet. Your post suggests you wanted to find out what he had.. then bet bigger.

 

[zxcvbnm123]

The flop and preflop are good but flop could have been like 3$ cuz 1.5$ into ~5$ pot is really weak. Turn is a easy check/fold. River is just bad.