25nl, QQ In a 3 bet pot, on an all around meh! flop

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switch0723

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Villain is 18/14/2.8 over 178 hands
I have been 15/12/3 on this table


Table 'Hippokoon IV' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: King MagicAA ($9.75 in chips)
Seat 2: InFaMouS72 ($41.70 in chips)
Seat 3: switch0723 ($36.60 in chips)
Seat 4: buzzy777 ($26.30 in chips)
Seat 5: loc2k ($26.45 in chips)
Seat 7: factofiction ($31.85 in chips)
Seat 8: davisjj627 ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 9: moelmer ($5.35 in chips)
buzzy777: posts small blind $0.10
loc2k: posts big blind $0.25
HiddenFish90: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to switch0723 [Qd Qs]
factofiction: folds
davisjj627: folds
moelmer: folds
King MagicAA: folds
InFaMouS72: raises $0.75 to $1
switch0723: raises $3.50 to $4.50
buzzy777: folds
loc2k: folds
InFaMouS72: calls $3.50
*** FLOP *** [Jc Jh Kc]
InFaMouS72: checks
switch0723: ????????

What am i meant to do here?? Do i bet for value/protection against a,x , a few straight draws possible, flush draw and lower pocket pairs??

or do i check behind and re evaluate turn, but be unsure of villain's hand if he comes out betting big on turn? and give up a free card to draws/ a,x hands and lower pp's?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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WAT HE SAID

He's either got an underpair/AQ/smaller suited connectors, or he's got something like AK/AJ/AA. The hands we have beat don't call a c-bet, we don't fold out better hands, and there's little chance of us getting outdrawn. Time for pot control.

Oh, the flush draw isn't really a worry unless he made an uncharacteristic call with 67s or has exactly AQc. Not a concern of ours.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
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/me checks for great justice.
 
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feitr

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Yep, you have alot of showdown value, but you are probably going to have to lay this down to a reraise on the flop and you might find you are forced to lay down the better hand since this is an easy flop to c/r bluff at. Give him a chance to bluff the turn (in a WA/WB situation like this when you have position you will almost always be calling the turn bet) then reevaluate what to do on the river. I'd check behind on the turn as well if given the option. You need to keep the pot nice and small.

There isn't much likelihood of you being outdrawn in this situation. He is going to show up with a flush draw so rarely here, and there is no need to protect against Ax/small pps/gutshot. I also don't really see what sort of value you are expecting to get out of Ax/small pps/gutshot etc. If anything, these hands are raising (or more likely folding) not calling your c-bet which makes your life hell on the flop.
 
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switch0723

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Fair enough, i thouht this and checked behind, to complete the easy part of the hand, the turn is where it got interesting though

*** FLOP *** [Jc Jh Kc]
InFaMouS72: checks
switch0723: checks
*** TURN *** [Jc Jh Kc] [Tc]
InFaMouS72: bets $6
switch0723: thinks oh ffs

Basic WA/WB says call here, but is villain bluffing/semi bluffing enough to call here??
 
D

DuaneK

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i belive he has an under pair. Call I wouldn't raise at this time. Bet you won the pot.
 
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switch0723

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Lol, why would you 'beleive' he has an underpair, the villain here could have a wide range of hands, a majority of which beat me
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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One of the worst cards in the deck. I'm sure a guy like this will semibluff and bluff some of his hands, but we can basically only pray he's got something like AcTx or 99 here and I don't think he bets the turn with those hands. He'll also fold AT etc most of the time pf.

I fold.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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I actually don't mind a call here, he very likely donks the turn here after we chk the flop. Call see if we can get a chk on the river, I mean don't we have to call this if we chk the flop. Otherwise we should have cb the flop, no?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Think about the range he's betting with though - what does he call a 3-bet with OOP that he bets that turn with? 9s? AcTx? That's about the best we can hope for...AQ/AJ/AK/flush/FH have us crushed, and we're ahead of unlikely underpairs and AT...
 
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switch0723

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Think about the range he's betting with though - what does he call a 3-bet with OOP that he bets that turn with? 9s? AcTx? That's about the best we can hope for...AQ/AJ/AK/flush/FH have us crushed, and we're ahead of unlikely underpairs and AT...

The underpairs are effectively turning their hands into bluffs, but didn't we check the flop, to induce these bluffs. Is there much lost by calling here and reevaluating river?

Would our decision be changed at all if i held the queen of clubs?? Since that gives us outs against non club A,x combinations, random jacks etc.

Can we at all consider our straightening cards as outs here to sway a decision, or is hitting the straight make no difference if its already drawing dead?
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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This is why I think we should cb the flop. We have taken the initiative with the hand, but the chking the flop we have handed him it right back to him. If he calls the cb, then were done with the hand, but chk'ing behind has left us folding he turn, which seems kind of weak. But agreed, we're only beating bluffs now.
 
Richyl2008

Richyl2008

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Pretty tough spot, I think without reads or knowing what he is calling large 3bets with preflop, I'd probably fold here. I would imagine a large portion of his range here will be 99+ or A10+ most of which have you in pretty bad shape. When you 3bet him he's got to imagine you generally have a pretty tight range (JJ+ AJ+) unless you 2 have some history or you have been isolating quite a bit. Since he's willingly betting into this scary board out of position when he knows that a lot of the board is well within most players 3 betting range, that should set off some alarm bells. Given the situation you want to play a small pot, I think the large 3bet preflop kind of puts you in an awkward post flop situation, although if you would have flopped an overpair, it would have been much easier to play, with a pretty good spr ,which is understandable.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Usually small pairs won't bet here though. There's just too much of a chance we've hit the board and are exercising pot control or slowplaying. I think he needs to be betting those >TT hands a lot of the time for a call to be profitable. Also note if he is bluffing with those underpairs, he'll probably be aggro enough to bluff the river a decent chunk of the time too which is not what we want to see.

Our outs are very dirty - a lot of them fill full houses or flushes, plus we might be dead already. So we can't really put too much weight on improving our hand.

I don't hate a call, but it can definitely get us in some trouble.
 
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switch0723

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This is why I think we should cb the flop. We have taken the initiative with the hand, but the chking the flop we have handed him it right back to him. If he calls the cb, then were done with the hand, but chk'ing behind has left us folding he turn, which seems kind of weak. But agreed, we're only beating bluffs now.

I was seriously considering betting the flop purely because i felt more comfortable bet/folding or betting then checking later streets, then checking and being forced into a tough decision on the turn

I should add 3 betting history actually since i forgot about that, this may sway a decision.

We basically do have a bit of history, ive 3 bet him 4 times, twice he folded, once he called and took a flop, i lead out on flop and took it down, and the fourth time he 4-bet big with what he claimed to be a,q after i told him i layed down a,k, but i don't believe him
 
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feitr

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yea worst turn card possible. Such a bad card in fact that i'd be very tempted to fold. You could call then c/f the river, but you have trouble finding many hands that you beat now.

I think i'd probably call turn just because 3 betting pf then checking flop and c/f ing turn is such a horribly weak play. But you probably are WB, since QQ has like 37% equity vs a range of AT+ 99+ KQ here.
 
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switch0723

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fwiw, i ended up calling the turn and instantly thought, why the f*ck have i called that. Villain and myself then checked a blank river and he flipped over a,k, with no club
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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Well if nothing else you have gained valuable info in how he plays AK for future. I probably play this exactly the same way. I know some get away from this on the turn, but there a lot better than myself when it comes to that skill.
 
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viking999

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I like checking the flop in position. Hypothetically, if I were out of position on that flop, I would prefer a bet and then shut down to any call or raise. Checking OOP is more likely to win a bet off of TT, but that only helps if you're planning on calling. It also opens the door to being bet off the best hand. Also, I like being able to limit the bet size for those situations that I'm crushed, rather than leave it up to my opponent to decide. Against a very tight or passive player, I do like a check/fold approach better, because he's folding a worse hand if you bet and he won't bluff it if you check.

I'd say the turn is an easy fold, as I think you realized immediately after you called. It's really grasping at straws to think that he might be betting an underpair at this point, and every other hand beats QQ. Looking at the hand from the villain's perspective, the ten is a very bad card for him to bluff. Now QQ is literally the only hand he can get to fold. AQ and TT are now monsters. Also, it's a very very very bad idea to draw to the straight, because the odds aren't nearly good enough to draw, and your outs might not even be live.

What if the turn were a blank? If he bets now, it depends the player you're up against. If he is hyper-aggressive, I think you can call.
Otherwise, I'd still lay it down. Betting out of position on a strong board shows a lot of strength, and I'd respect that versus all but the most loose aggressive opponents.
 
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switch0723

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Really viking, you fold on a blank turn??? After checking the flop??? Thats way to tight imo as we're letting a lot of worse hands push us off the best hand
 
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