$25 NLHE Full Ring: Correct Fold?

[basellne23]

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 24/12/1

Yatahay Network - $0.25 NL - Holdem - 8 players


MP+1: 155.92 BB
CO: 122.4 BB
BTN: 192.28 BB
SB: 116.2 BB
BB: 146.44 BB
Hero (UTG): 100.88 BB
UTG+1: 100 BB
MP: 36.2 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q♦ Q♣

Hero raises to 2 BB, fold, MP calls 2 BB, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 17.12 BB, fold, SB calls 12.12 BB

Flop: (37.24 BB, 2 players) 9♠ 2♠ 6♦
SB checks, Hero bets 18.2 BB, SB calls 18.2 BB

Turn: (73.64 BB, 2 players) J♦
SB checks, Hero checks

River: (73.64 BB, 2 players) 6♠
SB bets 55.2 BB, fold

SB wins 69.96 BB


I feel his turn check could have implied JJ slow play, well within his range calling my preflop 4bet. However, I feel like I may have under valued my hand by checking back the turn.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
I am not a fan of mini-raising in cash games. I think, it leaves a lot of money on the table, and when you then go for the 4-bet, its almost like a limp-reraise. It just looks super strong. I prefer to open to 2,5-3BB, and if he then come in for a more conventional 3-bet, I prefer to just call after opening from early position. I feel, that if we start 4-betting QQ here at full ring, a lot of the time we only get it in against AA or KK and fold out basically anything else.

Flop
Standard C-bet trying to get value from JJ and TT and deny equity for AK.

Turn
I like checking back on this card, not only because it gives him 3 more combos, you lose to, but also because it removes 6 of those combos, you were trying to get paid by.

River
Tough spot. Unless he is bad enough to be in here with a hand like AJ and think, he is doing this for value, you only beat a bluff. You lose to slowplayed AA and KK, JJ, maybe 99 and a few flush combos like AsKs and AsQs. The opponent is a bit on the passive side, so I think, its ok to give him credit here and fold.

 

[Collin Moshman]

Once you 4-bet pre-flop, you're committed to most all-undercard flops given the low stack-to-pot ratio. The board at the turn is too coordinated to give him a free card -- I would jam here for less than pot for value/protection.

While Villain could definitely have JJ, it's only 3 combos and I wouldn't let that slow you down given how large the pot is. He could still have AsQs, TT, and plenty of more random/unexpected hands assuming that you don't have a large sample on him.

 

[fundiver199]

I would definitely rather jam the turn than call the river against someone, who is on the passive side, which seem to be the case here given the HUD stats.

 

[basellne23]

My other concern was the flush getting there on the river

 

[Viparida]

Once you 4-bet pre-flop, you're committed to most all-undercard flops given the low stack-to-pot ratio. The board at the turn is too coordinated to give him a free card -- I would jam here for less than pot for value/protection.

While Villain could definitely have JJ, it's only 3 combos and I wouldn't let that slow you down given how large the pot is. He could still have AsQs, TT, and plenty of more random/unexpected hands assuming that you don't have a large sample on him.

Agreed, his status are kind tight but i think you got scared too easy.

 

[UkoChebuko]

Why min raise!? I think it is a lose of value, NL25.Your hand become weaker vs more players.

Postflop OTT check-back is not so bad, I think can be even better vs some aggro fish.
OTR you can fold, yeah, not a bad fold vs this size. On this board.

Well played...But use at least 3x from UTG.

 

[basellne23]

Why min raise!? I think it is a lose of value, NL25.Your hand become weaker vs more players.

Postflop OTT check-back is not so bad, I think can be even better vs some aggro fish.
OTR you can fold, yeah, not a bad fold vs this size. On this board.

Well played...But use at least 3x from UTG.

Thanks. Im mostly a tournament player so min raising is part of my overall strategy in those games. I need to get used to opening larger

 

[fundiver199]

Even in tournaments there is no point in min-raising, when stacks are deep. Its a play, which is used, when stacks are so short, that people can rejam on you, which is often companied by some ICM-pressure.

 

[basellne23]

Even in tournaments there is no point in min-raising, when stacks are deep. Its a play, which is used, when stacks are so short, that people can rejam on you, which is often companied by some ICM-pressure.

I understand the view point that I wont have much fold equity because its so cheap for people to call when deep stacked, I generally start to incorporate it in 20-40 bb deep. Seems to work well in the sit n gos I play.

 

[UkoChebuko]

What type of SNG you play? Buy in? I play SNG too...Against regs is better to use smaller size. Sometime there are only regs. But for the smaller buy ins is better to use bigger size. For MTT as well. For 10/20 I use 4x for any position, tight range, not so wide at late positions (no enough FE). The problem is that with smaller size you will play more often with 2, 3, 4 guys. You hand become weaker (as equity) and because the ICM, you must use bigger size and tight range. For 15/30 3 blinds works fine, at any position. For 20/40 2.5x already. For 25/50 2.5x from the early positions, SB and if the hand is weak Ax, Kx. For the late 2.2, I made 111 or 112, something like this. Works pretty well. For 40/80 2x starts to work already, 50/100 2x as well. With ante a little bit more. Only a little bit. I make the size "ugly". Lets say for 40/80 I make this 180. For 50/100 , 220. Works pretty well. Enough FE. And you can play a little bit wider range.
But for the cash games the people just don't like to fold. 3x is enough for the early positions, but this is the minimum. Yes, you can make 2.8x , something like this. If you want to. But this is the minimum. Don't go below 2.8x. Only for CO and the BTN...I mean for NL25 and below. There is another reason for this. This is a "standard" size, the people use that more often. And the info from the HUD will be more "correct". Let's say you use 2.5x from UTG, NL25 full ring. Then your info will be a "little bit" incorrect. I hope you understand me, sorry for my bad English. I am a tournament player as well, mate. I don't like the big sizes. But it is necessary...And you can go even higher for UTG full ring, NL25 and below. Nothing wrong with that. If your range is very tight, you must. 3.5x...This will be more profitable. But only if your range is very tight. Let's say you fold KQs from UtG full ring. Or JTs, 77...

 

[fundiver199]

I understand the view point that I wont have much fold equity because its so cheap for people to call when deep stacked, I generally start to incorporate it in 20-40 bb deep. Seems to work well in the sit n gos I play.

Basically the preflop raise size is a tradeoff. We want to go relatively large against big blind to give him bad odds to defend. However we lose money or chips, when we get 3-bet, and for that reason we want to risk less, if a lot of 3-betting is going on, or if we cant defend well against 3-betting because of ICM.

In soft cash games 3BB from any position is an easy strategy, and it works well. In tougher games with more 3-betting and less calling, 2,5BB works well. But if the game is so tough, that this is nessesary, then you probably dont want to be playing it with high rake. Which basically all cash games have up to at least 50NL.

Min-raising from BTN can be a good exploitative strategy, if people dont defend enough, and it should then be accompanied by widening your range. I can easily see, how this might work in soft SnGs. Bad regs are uncomfortable playing out of position with marginal hands, they often multitable, and they sort of understand ICM. So they prefer to "just let you have it this time" over and over again.

However there are also other exploits, we could look to make. If we are in CO, and everyone behind is passive with a low 3-bet, and big blind play very straight forward postflop, then why not put in a bit more chips pre? If we can take it down with a C-bet on the flop 60-70% of the time, we are also printing chips this way.