$25 NLHE 6-max: $ : Check back for pot control dodging straights and flushes?

[Aces2w1n]

10.36bb

Try -7bb.

Lets say we bet turn and protect our hand and bet 10.36bb and he does mistake and calls because thats how we win. Off other peoples mistakes. goes check check and we win.

So we win say roughly 28bb when right and lose that 10.36 when we are wrong anyway.

To say cutoff only opens with kx is stupid and calls flop only with kx.... this guys is monsters under the bed and being results orientated.

Ive seen most of the guys who replied on here would call top 2 pair or a set and play as villain would on flop and turn bc they scared of flush.

 

[Aces2w1n]

The amount equal on the right side of the ev equation cguru: Personally I'm surprises I make it sometimes + side. It feels good to have a small heater currently :elefant:

Nice work man

 

[braveslice]

Nice work man

Thx!

Ive seen most of the guys who replied on here would call top 2 pair or a set and play as villain would on flop and turn bc they scared of flush.

I would call even less, but I’m a fish-nit-tag, there is no indication CO is like that. Actually there is indication that most likely he is not like that.

Practice EV no hand selection by street:
Villain has on range all 2pair+ worse than ours: 72 combos {AA, QQ-TT, 44, AQs-ATs, QTs+, JTs, AQo-ATo, QTo+, JTo} and he calls every single of them

We lose to Kx hands: 60 combos {KK, AKs, K8s+, AKo, KTo+}

EV betting 10bb turn: 72/132*10bb-60/132*10bb= +0.91bb

 

[Aces2w1n]

Thx!

I would call even less, but I’m a fish-nit-tag, there is no indication CO is like that. Actually there is indication that most likely he is not like that.

Practice EV no hand selection by street:
Villain has on range all 2pair+ worse than ours: 72 combos {AA, QQ-TT, 44, AQs-ATs, QTs+, JTs, AQo-ATo, QTo+, JTo} and he calls every single of them

We lose to Kx hands: 60 combos {KK, AKs, K8s+, AKo, KTo+}

EV betting 10bb turn: 72/132*10bb-60/132*10bb= +0.91bb

Sweet

 

[razzor94]

Reading it sound great ... but basically that line is weak and giving up on the turn.

Alright so if we check turn for cheap showdown and now fold to any river bet...

Whats the point of checking turn. This is bad advice imo i know u all agree with him.

But basically he has said a line that loses less.. but also wins less

My line you bet the turn.. win his bet and he checks to the aggressor and we win more and lose the same.

Arr you people

Its just a mather of ranges u assign. If you can see him playing sets, 2 pairs, stuff like that, on that flop and still make mistakes on that turn card then you should bet. I just dont think we can make that kind of exploitative assumption until we have more info. 23 hands is just not enough.

For me and the range that i assign theres just not that many COMBOS of hands that we beat that would make him call there and make that mistake. In fact when we bet there we are the ones making a mistake which means its a -EV play.
I would much rather bet there with hands that block some of his Kx hands.
With the turn bet we are just blowing up the pot with a SD hand that cant stand any kind of aggresive action neither on the turn or on the river.

Also pot controling in this spot is not a way of lossing less. Its actually winning more. In the long run, lets say over a sample of 100K hands, when you find yourself in spots like these and save those 10BB or more, imagine what would that do to your WR.
So saving money is winning money. Its always better to make a cheap fold than a costly mistake.

GL.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Its just a mather of ranges u assign. If you can see him playing sets, 2 pairs, stuff like that, on that flop and still make mistakes on that turn card then you should bet. I just dont think we can make that kind of exploitative assumption until we have more info. 23 hands is just not enough.

For me and the range that i assign theres just not that many COMBOS of hands that we beat that would make him call there and make that mistake. In fact when we bet there we are the ones making a mistake which means its a -EV play.
I would much rather bet there with hands that block some of his Kx hands.
With the turn bet we are just blowing up the pot with a SD hand that cant stand any kind of aggresive action neither on the turn or on the river.

Also pot controling in this spot is not a way of lossing less. Its actually winning more. In the long run, lets say over a sample of 100K hands, when you find yourself in spots like these and save those 10BB or more, imagine what would that do to your WR.
So saving money is winning money. Its always better to make a cheap fold than a costly mistake.

GL.

Your points are misleading and for another scenerio.

Your making points people here that people will agree because its drilled or brainwashed in their head

Everything has its place and these points are great in general but dont serve in every scenerio.

We will just disagree and thats fine... i bet and win more but lose as well sometimes

And you check and let everything catchup for free on a dangerous board and assume monsters in closet.

Its fine

 

[mbrenneman0]

i think the key point in assigning him a proper range that ive gathered from this thread is that he check calls the flop. he was the pfr, and did not cbet. most competent players, and this appears to be a competent player, cbet anything tptk or better on this board texture but does not checks hands that are relatively on this board. KK is pretty much the very top of his check-calling range here. he does not check two pair or sets on this flop, he would cbet those hands.

 

[Aces2w1n]

i think the key point in assigning him a proper range that ive gathered from this thread is that he check calls the flop. he was the pfr, and did not cbet. most competent players, and this appears to be a competent player, cbet anything tptk or better on this board texture but does not checks hands that are relatively on this board. KK is pretty much the very top of his check-calling range here. he does not check two pair or sets on this flop, he would cbet those hands.

We dont have too much history on this guy.

I highly doubt KK checks this flop.... people will check here bc they giveup or have a monster.

Turn suggests he doesnt have a monster.

Most players wont want a freecard here and have a huge draw on flop and overpair.

But regarding rest of his range our bet on turn would get folds or mistake calls on his part.

The way villain played was quite clever perhaps cuz of the heart.


But hey im for the check if we had heart.. the same reason villain checked his hand. But the boards working against us so thats why i bet

 

[Aces2w1n]

But cant assume a 30vpips thinks... perhaps played got lucky with his play

 

[razzor94]

We dont have too much history on this guy.

I highly doubt KK checks this flop.... people will check here bc they giveup or have a monster.

Turn suggests he doesnt have a monster.

Most players wont want a freecard here and have a huge draw on flop and overpair.

But regarding rest of his range our bet on turn would get folds or mistake calls on his part.

The way villain played was quite clever perhaps cuz of the heart.


But hey im for the check if we had heart.. the same reason villain checked his hand. But the boards working against us so thats why i bet

There are no mistakes on his part when we bet the turn. Everything better calls or raises and everything worse folds. If you put him on a certain range on the flop then he can only have that range on the turn. You cant say "oh he cant have 2 pair on the flop or sets that would play that way" and then add those 2 pair and sets on the turn and bet.
That is just bad.
He could catch up with 2 pair on that turn that have an A, but unless its only AxJh its folding to any bet, unless you bet something like 1/3 or 1/4 pot and give him the actual chance to catch up if he isnt there yet.
Betting the turn against a practically unknown player is bad play and in the long run its going to cost you money.

Plus now that i know he plays KK this way it just adds more combos of Kx in this spot.
Also his check on the turn highly indicates that he has a monster. Think about it. If he bets the turn what hands is he actually checking ? If he bets he is facing his range face up and it contains Kx without the K of harts. Checking with his monsters here is the best play cause he would do this with his whole range that has more Kx but still some 2 pair that he wants you to think he has. Its a check to induce bluffs and basicly you are tourning your Q high straight into a bluff.

 

[Aces2w1n]

I dont think i rate kk on a flush board a monster. We cant really say whether hes checking to induce bluffs... remember we cant assume this player sees what you see... this is a huge mistake.

I dont know why getting folds on the turn is a bad thing.... its a great thing in my opinion and makes poker easy. I just think calling river is worse than betting turn.

Betting on a dangerous board to protect is good... if we check and board pairs or 4th flush card comes out. Villain your giving too much credit and hes underrepped a dangerous board and going to lose a ton of value with paired board and 4th flush.

These types of boards will create many profitable mistakes... and the bet on the turn loses no more than the call on river

Either way we are saving money from his mistake with losing value.

Take sometime apart and pretend you have a different hand thats not kx... and see how you would play it

 

[Aces2w1n]

Sometimes people turnup with random holdings and for what reason? Well perhaps a few such as tilt.. overtired and all other things.

Poker players arent rational but we try to be all the time.. but often i see players with hands and i just think omg and its not always the fishies i think this.

Anyways we can go one step further and try and get in the opponents head why... but yeh i do think the passiveneas was bad