$25 NL HE Full Ring: Triple barrel with Rivered Top Pair?

[Station_Master]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.10/$.25

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

VP$IP

19

PFR

13

Currency

$

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 8 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $15.93 (64 bb)
UTG+1: $20.00 (80 bb)
MP: $25.63 (103 bb)
MP+1: $8.10 (32 bb)
CO (Hero): $25.85 (103 bb)
BU: $48.73 (195 bb)
SB: $28.93 (116 bb)
BB: $25.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with Q♣ A♠
2 players fold, MP raises to $0.75, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $2.25, 3 players fold, MP calls $1.50

Seems like a fairly standard 3bet pre against someone I have no real reads on, other than him looking like a typical reg.

Flop: ($4.85) K♥ 4♣ 4♠ (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.40, MP calls $1.40

Great flop for range so I cbet small (as I would with my whole range)

Turn: ($7.65) 6♥ (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $4.80, MP calls $4.80

Seems like a good card to double barrel - I expect villain to have lots of 88 - QQ that would mostly fold and Kx that won't. My hand has decent Kx blockers too.

River: ($17.25) A♦ (2 players)
MP checks, Hero?

I river top pair. I expect villain to have mostly Kx at this point plus the occasional slowplay with 4x or 66. The question is whether I have a value bet or its is too thin? The main hand I'm worried about is AK as while villain is meant to 4bet it sometimes, alot of the pool just calls 3bets. My other concern is whether Kx will necessarily call a triple barrel, certainly weaker hands like KTs/K9s I would expect to fold out and villain shouldn't really have any offsuit Kx apart from AKo - so can I get called 50% or more to make this a profitable value bet.
Also what size would you suggest? in game I was thinking between check and all-in (about pot), obviously if I bet smaller and get shoved on I have to call (right?)

 

[Aballinamion]

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.10/$0.25 - 8 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: $15.93 (64 bb)
UTG+1: $20.00 (80 bb)
MP: $25.63 (103 bb)
MP+1: $8.10 (32 bb)
CO (Hero): $25.85 (103 bb)
BU: $48.73 (195 bb)
SB: $28.93 (116 bb)
BB: $25.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with Q♣ A♠
2 players fold, MP raises to $0.75, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets to $2.25, 3 players fold, MP calls $1.50

Seems like a fairly standard 3bet pre against someone I have no real reads on, other than him looking like a typical reg.

Flop: ($4.85) K♥ 4♣ 4♠ (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.40, MP calls $1.40

Great flop for range so I cbet small (as I would with my whole range)

Turn: ($7.65) 6♥ (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $4.80, MP calls $4.80

Seems like a good card to double barrel - I expect villain to have lots of 88 - QQ that would mostly fold and Kx that won't. My hand has decent Kx blockers too.

River: ($17.25) A♦ (2 players)
MP checks, Hero?

I river top pair. I expect villain to have mostly Kx at this point plus the occasional slowplay with 4x or 66. The question is whether I have a value bet or its is too thin? The main hand I'm worried about is AK as while villain is meant to 4bet it sometimes, alot of the pool just calls 3bets. My other concern is whether Kx will necessarily call a triple barrel, certainly weaker hands like KTs/K9s I would expect to fold out and villain shouldn't really have any offsuit Kx apart from AKo - so can I get called 50% or more to make this a profitable value bet.
Also what size would you suggest? in game I was thinking between check and all-in (about pot), obviously if I bet smaller and get shoved on I have to call (right?)

It’s been a long time that I don’t see your hands here, mate! Glad you are playing and posting!
Yes, preflop we don’t want to mess around, we can never fold and we can (almost) never call, so your 3-bet is pretty fine.
The flops come dry and good for us, now we do own plenty of AK, KK, AA and a 1/4, 1/3 pot is good to do the work. You would’ve done the same with the best part of your range, which is good for we have no clue about villain.
On the turn you are right, villain has plenty of dominated hands that could continue calling, plus the BDF of hearts. But... we don’t know if this guy is a regular or a fish or a combination of both (a recular, like me).
Playing NLHE 25 we expect that even the fishes are better than those of NLHE 2 and NLHE 5.
Our sizing is good on the turn with all entire range, even if we were the ones holding AK or KK.
This river check is kinda odd, but now we most likely have the best hand: we have no ideia what would happen if we do bet here, if villain would call, if villain would raise/jam or fold: being aware of that, I would be checking behind most of times to realize my equity.
Against a known player I would be triple barreling or even jamming on the same spot.
Yes, if we do bet on the river we go big, and depending on SPR we simply jammed it to expect to get calls of Kx and worst: we would to that in spite of the ace coming to the river or not. Betting pot is also good, but if villain raises/jam we are in.
Thank you very much for sharing your hand and your thought processes.

Best regards mate!

 

[Station_Master]

It’s been a long time that I don’t see your hands here, mate! Glad you are playing and posting!
Yes, preflop we don’t want to mess around, we can never fold and we can (almost) never call, so your 3-bet is pretty fine.
The flops come dry and good for us, now we do own plenty of AK, KK, AA and a 1/4, 1/3 pot is good to do the work. You would’ve done the same with the best part of your range, which is good for we have no clue about villain.
On the turn you are right, villain has plenty of dominated hands that could continue calling, plus the BDF of hearts. But... we don’t know if this guy is a regular or a fish or a combination of both (a recular, like me).
Playing NLHE 25 we expect that even the fishes are better than those of NLHE 2 and NLHE 5.
Our sizing is good on the turn with all entire range, even if we were the ones holding AK or KK.
This river check is kinda odd, but now we most likely have the best hand: we have no ideia what would happen if we do bet here, if villain would call, if villain would raise/jam or fold: being aware of that, I would be checking behind most of times to realize my equity.
Against a known player I would be triple barreling or even jamming on the same spot.
Yes, if we do bet on the river we go big, and depending on SPR we simply jammed it to expect to get calls of Kx and worst: we would to that in spite of the ace coming to the river or not. Betting pot is also good, but if villain raises/jam we are in.
Thank you very much for sharing your hand and your thought processes.

Best regards mate!

Hi Mate - thanks for commenting on my hand, i had about 100 hands with him and had him tagged as a Reg (based on normal VPIP/PFR), thats not to say he would necessarily be good, but I assumed he was at least reasonable.

Note I'm never jamming on a brick river as I would expect Kx to almost always call and most other stuff to have folded on the turn, I was planning to give up, and then the A came giving me something to think about!

 

[Aballinamion]

Hi Mate - thanks for commenting on my hand, i had about 100 hands with him and had him tagged as a Reg (based on normal VPIP/PFR), thats not to say he would necessarily be good, but I assumed he was at least reasonable.

Note I'm never jamming on a brick river as I would expect Kx to almost always call and most other stuff to have folded on the turn, I was planning to give up, and then the A came giving me something to think about!

My pleasure. I’m curious to see what Lars will say about it (fundiver).
Now just an opinion out of poker theory: I think a decent regular would fold to your jam on the river having only TP?K.
Why? I would’ve folded to it, even if I had AK, because when we do call a 3-bet preflop we don’t own the best combos on the river most of times.
When you jam any outcome on the river, specially this ace, you are representing full-houses with KK and AA, for you are the preflop aggressor so you will get to the river having the best combos, not the defender.
I think that players that don’t figure this out and are exploitatively calling jams on the river owning TP?K or Top Two Pair (for this specific scenario where Hero 3-bets preflop), as the defenders, have too much influence of tournaments brought to the cash tables.
In tournaments is very common to call jams on the river even with second pair, but cash looks like tournaments in many ways, but it’s by far a very different game.
For example, in villain’s shoes, I would’ve noted that you are a solid regular and when you jam river of course you could have bluffs, but I wouldn’t have the odds to call, plus I would respect you and fold my top pairs or two pairs, trips, flushes, whatever: if you are bluffing, good to you, this is the way I look to regular players.

 

[gustav197poker]

Preflop and flop very standard. On the turn it really depends on what range you put on villain. I don't see many dominated hands calling from a MP opening on a paired board. Which is one reason not to polarize the ranges and maybe you didn't mean to do that, and for that reason I think it's the max value you could get on the turn.
The river is favorable for us but not for V because his range is capped. Here I would go for a 1/4-1/3 pot bet and maybe we could consider going into bluff catcher mode if V raise.
Greetings.

 

[Station_Master]

Results....

....so I checked back, thinking it might be too thin.

I ran this hand through GTO Wizard and check looked to be the right play, but exploitatively I am not sure as villains can be too straightforward and raise their good hands earlier or donk river.

As it turned out he had KQo! Which should have just folded pre, so if I had known he was this wide with offsuit Kx, then it becomes a river value bet. Actually, I think pool will make quite a few calling mistakes pre, so perhaps it's another reason to bet.

 

[Aballinamion]

Results....

....so I checked back, thinking it might be too thin.

I ran this hand through GTO Wizard and check looked to be the right play, but exploitatively I am not sure as villains can be too straightforward and raise their good hands earlier or donk river.

As it turned out he had KQo! Which should have just folded pre, so if I had known he was this wide with offsuit Kx, then it becomes a river value bet. Actually, I think pool will make quite a few calling mistakes pre, so perhaps it's another reason to bet.

You are walking too much with fundiver and getting NIT!!!
You guys seem to play only suited combos, even broadways. Do you think we must be folding KQo from MP in a 6-MAX or Full-Ring table?
9-handed I can even understand the logic of folding it, but for 6-MAX we are opening almost 90% of times!

Hey, no offense or sarcasm given, just making a joke to you guys, I hope you don’t get me wrong!

Hugs!

 

[Station_Master]

You are walking too much with fundiver and getting NIT!!!
You guys seem to play only suited combos, even broadways. Do you think we must be folding KQo from MP in a 6-MAX or Full-Ring table?
9-handed I can even understand the logic of folding it, but for 6-MAX we are opening almost 90% of times!

Hey, no offense or sarcasm given, just making a joke to you guys, I hope you don’t get me wrong!

Hugs!

Hah no problem, maybe I am a nit!

Anyway, I think KQo must be opened from LJ whether its 9 max or 6 max, but against a CO 3bet it should be folded as it wont play well out of position and often be dominated. As LJ is opening a fairly tight range there are better hands to defend with.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
My main play here would be to just call, but I guess, a 3-bet can also be fine from time to time.

Flop
I can get on board with a small "range bet", but with your particular hand you will mostly get better hands to call and worse hands to fold. So if there is ever a hand to not C-bet, it kind of has to be this one? I wanted to run the spot in GTO Wizard to see, what a solver say, but apparently I am out of free calculations.

Turn
I actually disagree, that this is a good barrel card. A good barrel card would be high card like a Q or J, which put more pressure on pocket pairs below the K. You also dont have any kind of draw. So a bit like on the flop, if we are not checking back this combo, are we ever checking back anything? From a theory standpoint we are supposed to bluff with our hands, that have the least showdown value. But in this case AQ dont fit that bill, since we should also have some suited wheel aces and suited connectors like QJs, if we have a balanced 3-betting range.

River
Kind of an awkward spot with an SPR of just around 1. If you jam, you probably only get called, when you are beat. Maybe he can have AJ or AT of hearts and pay you off, but thats probably just about it, since his other AX combos were most likely folded on the flop or turn. Except for AK or A4, which you lose to. So I dont like jamming. Then you could bet small like 25% pot. But that looks quite weak, and if he check-jam, you have no idea, if you induced it, or if you are being taken to value town. So I dont like that option either, which only leave the option of checking back.

Results
KQo should not have defended to a 3-bet, but him showing up with this hand also illustrate the problem with your flop and turn line. You are basically putting money in the pot with 3 outs and was pretty lucky to hit one of them on the river. And even when that happened, you could not go for value.

 

[fundiver199]

You guys seem to play only suited combos, even broadways. Do you think we must be folding KQo from MP in a 6-MAX or Full-Ring table?

Not open folding, but folding to a 3-bet out of position. Jonathan Little posted a Youtube video yesterday about playing AK. In this video he showed a solver output for an EP open and BB 3-bet. In that output even AQo was a square fold to the 3-bet, and KQo is way worse. Instead the solver defends with suited hands with low cards, which gives it board coverage and less domination issues.

 

[Station_Master]

Preflop
My main play here would be to just call, but I guess, a 3-bet can also be fine from time to time.

Flop
I can get on board with a small "range bet", but with your particular hand you will mostly get better hands to call and worse hands to fold. So if there is ever a hand to not C-bet, it kind of has to be this one? I wanted to run the spot in GTO Wizard to see, what a solver say, but apparently I am out of free calculations.

Turn
I actually disagree, that this is a good barrel card. A good barrel card would be high card like a Q or J, which put more pressure on pocket pairs below the K. You also dont have any kind of draw. So a bit like on the flop, if we are not checking back this combo, are we ever checking back anything? From a theory standpoint we are supposed to bluff with our hands, that have the least showdown value. But in this case AQ dont fit that bill, since we should also have some suited wheel aces and suited connectors like QJs, if we have a balanced 3-betting range.

River
Kind of an awkward spot with an SPR of just around 1. If you jam, you probably only get called, when you are beat. Maybe he can have AJ or AT of hearts and pay you off, but thats probably just about it, since his other AX combos were most likely folded on the flop or turn. Except for AK or A4, which you lose to. So I dont like jamming. Then you could bet small like 25% pot. But that looks quite weak, and if he check-jam, you have no idea, if you induced it, or if you are being taken to value town. So I dont like that option either, which only leave the option of checking back.

Results
KQo should not have defended to a 3-bet, but him showing up with this hand also illustrate the problem with your flop and turn line. You are basically putting money in the pot with 3 outs and was pretty lucky to hit one of them on the river. And even when that happened, you could not go for value.

Thanks for you comments.

Note I ran this one through GTO wizard and on the flop it bets range, mixing small and big sizing. I think when the board is this good for the 3 bettor a range bet works well.

GTO Wizard agrees with you on the turn and prefers mostly check, preferring to bet with the Ah. However the EV of bet and check is the same so it's not a big mistake either way. I think in practice we have less showdown value than in theory as in theory villain should be floating AJ, AT etc but I dont think they really are in practice. I would be checking back underpairs and weak Kx here so unpaired hands seem to be the bottom of range. I prefer barreling this to QJ given it has outs to a king, Suited aces are a good option too, so its possible I am overbluffing.

I was also assuming alot of fold equity from his pocket pair region and have good blockers to Kx, obviously if he calls his 99 etc then this is a bad bluff. The fact he showed up with KQo means he probably has more Kx than I was expecting, so maybe check is the better line (as I think other villains would make this mistake too).

I'm still undecided on this turn barrel!

GTO wizard mostly checks back river, so I think this was reasonable but possibly prefer an exploitative bet.