$25 NL HE 6-max: Do we make this borderline call?

[canbora]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.10/$.25

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

VP$IP

15

PFR

12

AF

0

Currency

$

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.15/$0.30 - 6 players

UTG: $37.25 (124 bb)
MP: $18.95 (63 bb)
CO: $51.80 (173 bb)
BU: $19.68 (66 bb)
SB (Hero): $36.76 (123 bb)
BB: $51.41 (171 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.45) Hero is SB with T♦ J♦
UTG raises to $0.66, 3 players fold, Hero calls $0.51, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.62) 9♦ 7♣ 6♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.77, Hero calls $0.77

Turn: ($3.16) A♦ (2 players)

------------------------------------------------
Additional villain notes:
[P] 4Bet+ range {AA} (1)
[P] Attempted Steal then 4Bet {AA} (1)

ZERO 3 bets, C bets, fold to C bets, etc. All zero. (ou of 27 sample hands)

basically, bro is SUPER tag. He's like their spokesperson.
----------------------------------------------------

Today was standard for my stakes and region. ULTRA nit. % to see a flop was 6%. I had approx. 250 hands multiabling, a short session. 1/3 of my hands were "won without showdown". I had 3 showdowns, won 1, lost 2. All small pots. I should have been arrested for grand theft larceny.

The reason I called In the SB was because of equilibrium. I knew the villain was a super tag. It was a small UTG raise. He probably had A10 suited?-ish??? Maybe AJ off. Perhaps "bait" for AA. If I hit he would pay me off and I was totally prepared to let this go to a rearise or strong bet. I call. Flop, of course I'm calling this small bet. I have backdoor straight flush and nut gutshot. Normally I'd reraise here, but given the nature of this player, if I'm against an overpair, I'm beat. With a backdoor SF, non-not F, and, gutshhot S. I didn't feel this was warranted enough. Maybe I'm wrong. So I just call. Now the turn brings the Ad. I'm calling any half to pot sized bet. Anything smaller I'm reraising. What does he do??? huge overbet. Now I'm stuck. I did the math. I'm near coin flip to hit 47% on a random hand. 3:1 dog if he has an A. ... which I'm pretty dang sure he does. If not possibly even a set of aces.

Any other player, any type of stronger draw, I'd have no problem pushing back, and or even just cold calling. ...but not this guy

what's proper here, ya think?

 

[canbora]

Few things to add:

1. I just reread the guidelines for posting in this sub forum. MY title should have been better. I don't know how hard this is enforced, so my apologies. I'm new here, please bear with me.


2. I'm fully aware of all of the "maff" here. But I feel like this is where my game is and where I need to improve. I know how to old school play, "does he have it or doesn't he?" I've been playing all of my life, and playing seriously since the poker boom 20-sum years ago (with an extended hiatus because of black Friday). And I've switched back and forth, but I'm seeing that's its a hybrid of the two, as most things are. Just as life, and poker is like life.

2A.I'm all for making the plays and taking risk. I just cant ignore the table dynamics here. I feel like I have to go against the "general" math of any random hand. I'm fairly certain, this guy had an Ace. All of his history would point to that. Or another strong hand like perhaps a set.


3. :::::::Not sure if this is allowed, but quasi-spoiler here:::::But I ran this through a solver. Every spot both he and I either did the best thing or the acceptable thing up to this point.


4. going off of number 3, I found this interesting.........he posted the EXACT "push bet" the solver suggest. (but it actually favored just checking for him) Is there some sort of HUD that does this? Makes suggestions? Or is this coincidence, or do you think this guy knows this from study? .. or possibly was typing stuff in as he was playing. That was an interesting over bet, which MAY be normal for him, but certainly not this table or stake level in my region. History of "good" players both past and very recent if you've seen my other posts lol... suggest people do this when they actually have a strong hand. Rec's do this to push you out when they have a upper marginal hand. Either way, they still have the Ace, and if we use THAT math, vs random general math, it changes the math of this situation.

 

[gustav197poker]

Preflop
Set a target for this V. If your goal is to kill him with a ghost hand, calling as you did may be your best option.
If your goal is to continue stealing, you have one hand to do so and try to end it here, although this is a very slim line, given the characteristics of the table you describe.
I am inclined to wait for a better place in a very nitty table, taking into account that you are OOP and the BB still to play.

Flop
Good the call and control of the pot. Any other movement opens the possibility of exploiting the opponent if it is very closed.

Turn
Against overbet I suppose we have a standard fold here. I think this V is overplaying or doesn't realize that the ace is not in you favor and therefore he shouldn't bet too much. I think that V does not have much intention of playing for ranges, so I would be patient and against this opponent I would play for stacks when he has a really strong hand.

 

[canbora]

Preflop
Set a target for this V. If your goal is to kill him with a ghost hand, calling as you did may be your best option.
If your goal is to continue stealing, you have one hand to do so and try to end it here, although this is a very slim line, given the characteristics of the table you describe.
I am inclined to wait for a better place in a very nitty table, taking into account that you are OOP and the BB still to play.

Flop
Good the call and control of the pot. Any other movement opens the possibility of exploiting the opponent if it is very closed.

Turn
Against overbet I suppose we have a standard fold here. I think this V is overplaying or doesn't realize that the ace is not in you favor and therefore he shouldn't bet too much. I think that V does not have much intention of playing for ranges, so I would be patient and against this opponent I would play for stacks when he has a really strong hand.

I appreciate your insight as always. Yeah it's just it's crazy, I will of course reveal what I did later on. I think that this is truly you know, what these types of things are for, these really super borderline hands. As shown and proven the math full on plainly calls for me to make the call here. Other situations even justify the raises in multiple situations...... But given table and player info, it suggests completely the opposite, that I'm no good here. This is one of my main and current predicaments. Trying to decide what method to go for the GTO or the, proverbial does he have it or doent he.

I think this is a perfect example of that because it goes from being 50/50, to three to one, approximately.

In addition, something else anyone can add to here...that's something I've noticed (and I will also do this in mtts too), without going too far into it, I sometimes like to call with marginal hands when I clearly recognize that someone who is a tag or a recreational player likes their hand way too much. Not saying I'm any better or worse but simply just recognize the situation. A lot of people don't know how to lay their hand down and they go into fight or flight and try to push you out.

Because if I hit, it's the one chance I get to stack them. But that may in fact bring an even more difficult situation later because more than likely it'll be borderline it won't be something as simple as floating a boat.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
I think, this is a losing call long term, when you make it from SB. SB calling is way different from BB calling, because you are getting a worse price and not closing action. BB can still put in a 3-bet, and when he does that, you have to fold. JTs also dont have great equity against an UTG open range even at 6-max, and you are out of position postflop with a capped range. So everything works against you here, which is why, I would much rather 3-bet this hand. By 3-betting you give yourself fold equity, and if he call, you can continue firing on a flop like this. Or you can just fold. Its not nessesary to defend your SB to an UTG open very often at all.

Flop
This is a great flop for your range and also your hand, since you have a gutshot to the nuts, a BDFD and two overcards. The opponent can have all the pocket pairs 66+, but he also have a lot of broadways, that missed, so this is a great board to attack him with a check-raise. Once again I dont like the passive option, because you are out of position, and you have zero showdown value with J high. If you are going to play this hand at all, it needs to be "J high like a boss", not "J high like a calling station".

Turn
You picked up a flushdraw, but the A also gives him a lot of top pair. I would never get here like this, but as played I guess, you have to check and call any bet up to around 3/4 pot, since you now have a 12-out draw. I dont like leading, because it would be a disaster to get raised.

 

[canbora]

Preflop
I think, this is a losing call long term, when you make it from SB. SB calling is way different from BB calling, because you are getting a worse price and not closing action. BB can still put in a 3-bet, and when he does that, you have to fold. JTs also dont have great equity against an UTG open range even at 6-max, and you are out of position postflop with a capped range. So everything works against you here, which is why, I would much rather 3-bet this hand. By 3-betting you give yourself fold equity, and if he call, you can continue firing on a flop like this. Or you can just fold. Its not nessesary to defend your SB to an UTG open very often at all.

Flop
This is a great flop for your range and also your hand, since you have a gutshot to the nuts, a BDFD and two overcards. The opponent can have all the pocket pairs 66+, but he also have a lot of broadways, that missed, so this is a great board to attack him with a check-raise. Once again I dont like the passive option, because you are out of position, and you have zero showdown value with J high. If you are going to play this hand at all, it needs to be "J high like a boss", not "J high like a calling station".

Turn
You picked up a flushdraw, but the A also gives him a lot of top pair. I would never get here like this, but as played I guess, you have to check and call any bet up to around 3/4 pot, since you now have a 12-out draw. I dont like leading, because it would be a disaster to get raised.

I honestly cant disagree with a single thing you're saying.

 

[fundiver199]

On a side-note, if you want to play cash games seriously, and especially if you focus on 6-max, then I would spend some time to study and really learn the GTO ranges for preflop. For me as a tournament player, there are so many variables with stack sizes, ICM and sometimes 8-handed or 9-handed tables, that my goal is to avoid significant mistakes rather than get it 100% right.

But for 6-max cash games there are only so many different situations, you are going to face, like SB vs. UTG, SB vs. HJ, SB vs. CO and SB vs. BTN, that its really manageable to study those using either printed charts or a program like GTO Wizard. At least for a standard open like 2,5BB. I looked at this spot in GTO Wizard, and I was actually partly wrong. JTs in NOT a fold preflop against a GTO opponent. It is the worst suited hand, we defend 100%, whereas T9s is mostly a fold. I was however somewhat correct in the sense, that GTO Wizard has a slight preference for 3-betting JTs rather than calling.

On the flop I was also partly wrong, since GTO Wizard lead this flop small (2BB) 70% of the time. And when it does check, it only check-raises 30% of the time. The other 70% of the time, it calls. So your line here is actually solver approved, although the solver will sometimes also take my more aggressive line. On the turn though the solver finally agree with me and essentially check this combo 100% of the time. The solver lead AKA "donk bet" 30% of the time, but not with this or the other JTs combos.

 

[Station_Master]

I think I would rather check raise flop. The board smashes your range and UTG will have lots of misses, plus you can barrel any diamond or if you make the straight.

Against the turn overbet it's tough, you probably ought to fold as not getting the pot odds, though its painful folding out this much equity.

 

[fundiver199]

Against the turn overbet it's tough, you probably ought to fold as not getting the pot odds, though its painful folding out this much equity.

Yeah I think so as well. On the positive side I guess, its good, that we will rarely get overflushed, since he can pretty much only have KQ of diamonds for a better flushdraw. But on the downside he will have a fair amount of sets, so a board pairing flush card could potentially be bad for us. And we are out of position, which makes it more difficult to get paid, when we hit. So the implied odds are probably not quite there, and the direct odds are certainly not, when we face an overbet.

 

[canbora]

On a side-note, if you want to play cash games seriously, and especially if you focus on 6-max, then I would spend some time to study and really learn the GTO ranges for preflop. For me as a tournament player, there are so many variables with stack sizes, ICM and sometimes 8-handed or 9-handed tables, that my goal is to avoid significant mistakes rather than get it 100% right.

But for 6-max cash games there are only so many different situations, you are going to face, like SB vs. UTG, SB vs. HJ, SB vs. CO and SB vs. BTN, that its really manageable to study those using either printed charts or a program like GTO Wizard. At least for a standard open like 2,5BB. I looked at this spot in GTO Wizard, and I was actually partly wrong. JTs in NOT a fold preflop against a GTO opponent. It is the worst suited hand, we defend 100%, whereas T9s is mostly a fold. I was however somewhat correct in the sense, that GTO Wizard has a slight preference for 3-betting JTs rather than calling.

On the flop I was also partly wrong, since GTO Wizard lead this flop small (2BB) 70% of the time. And when it does check, it only check-raises 30% of the time. The other 70% of the time, it calls. So your line here is actually solver approved, although the solver will sometimes also take my more aggressive line. On the turn though the solver finally agree with me and essentially check this combo 100% of the time. The solver lead AKA "donk bet" 30% of the time, but not with this or the other JTs combos.

Yeah I do GTO wizard practice every single day as well as others. I love it. Been doing it for months now. But .. what do ya do when others dont follow it? I think its funny because I treat it like its a test, well today, out of nowhere it geos NUTS on me reraising me with blufs and J10 suited no less!! life is spooky sometimes. Im like, oh you want to actualy play poker wizard? So I started playing back, got it to fold, won, then it gives me bad scores like a child who loses even when they make up the rules. Like you bluffed bro, I called you and won, it wasnt a bad play.

As far as the solver goes, yeah Like i was saying, I did that too and each case is arguable, fold , call, or raise. We know what I did. Would I do it again? I honestly don't know. Maybe. Maybe on the turn I should have check raised. potato patawto

 

[fundiver199]

But .. what do ya do when others dont follow it?

For me the goal should not be to try to copy the solver 100%. That is almost humanly impossible to do in real time, because there are so many partials and so many different postflop situations. So for me the goal is to check, if I am completely outside the decision tree of the solver, and if the solver does something, I would not have thought of. And in this case folding preflop is in fact to tight. But of course if I had HUD-data telling me, the opponent was a TAG or NIT, then it would be reasonable to fold the bottom on the GTO defending range. But I should know, I was doing an exploit and have a reason to do it.

On the flop for me the most interesting part is, that the solver leads with your hand 70% of the time, and actually does a lot of leading with its overall range around 30% of the time. This is something, I think, many of us completely miss out on, because we are stuck in the "always check to the preflop raiser" mentality. But there are boards and configurations like this one, where its correct to do a lot of leading, and if we dont try to work that into our game to some extent, we are leaving money on the table.

But again if the opponent is over C-betting, and I have HUD-data showing this, then maybe its fine to not have a leading range and instead check-raise him more, as my instinct was. But once again I should have that information and know, that I am deviating from GTO, and why I am doing it. The problem here is, that the GTO opponent check this flop back quite a lot, and this mean, we dont get a chance to attack some of his Q high, K high or A high with a check-raise. Which we kind of want, since all those hands are currently ahead of our J high.

 

[canbora]

For me the goal should not be to try to copy the solver 100%. That is almost humanly impossible to do in real time, because there are so many partials and so many different postflop situations. So for me the goal is to check, if I am completely outside the decision tree of the solver, and if the solver does something, I would not have thought of. And in this case folding preflop is in fact to tight. But of course if I had HUD-data telling me, the opponent was a TAG or NIT, then it would be reasonable to fold the bottom on the GTO defending range. But I should know, I was doing an exploit and have a reason to do it.

On the flop for me the most interesting part is, that the solver leads with your hand 70% of the time, and actually does a lot of leading with its overall range around 30% of the time. This is something, I think, many of us completely miss out on, because we are stuck in the "always check to the preflop raiser" mentality. But there are boards and configurations like this one, where its correct to do a lot of leading, and if we dont try to work that into our game to some extent, we are leaving money on the table.

But again if the opponent is over C-betting, and I have HUD-data showing this, then maybe its fine to not have a leading range and instead check-raise him more, as my instinct was. But once again I should have that information and know, that I am deviating from GTO, and why I am doing it. The problem here is, that the GTO opponent check this flop back quite a lot, and this mean, we dont get a chance to attack some of his Q high, K high or A high with a check-raise. Which we kind of want, since all those hands are currently ahead of our J high.

I'm starting to think its best to not even engage with nits and tags. either fold the hand unless its very special circumstances and you KNOW you can do monster vs monster, or just leave the table. i have so many examples. Like, say... they open like this, smallish raise, say he has aA10 suited, and say I'm in the button with AJ offsuit. What am I suppose to do? Fold this? get real. I'm not three betting. Say the flop comes A 7 2 rainbow. They will panic and push you out with bigger and bigger bets. Position is irrelevant. Flight or fight is engaged, they're panic betting. Am I going in by the river with AJ offsuit? I dont think so. Or say its vis versa, I have a 10 suited and he has a j offsuit , or even AQ offsuit, whatever. Am I going to lose a full stack to that? ...also am I suppose friggen fold top pair with a good kicker? This happens ALL the time. This is why I rather call with other hands like J 10 suited for equilibrium. I never even considered my J or 10 would be good as an overpair, two pair would be even worse. MAYBE if it was 10 10 or J J.. maybe. I was shooting for the flush or straight. I wanted his stack. Because I knew he wouldn't lay it down and this betting proves this. zero emotional control.

Ill give another example, last night. had a BAD run. Nothing I did was right. Im on button, folds to me, I raise with pocket 6s. SB three bets. Hes a TAG. I want to insta fold right there. Not even worth it. But I dont, becuase I have a pair, im on the button and you have to take chances with my stupid pocket sixes. Well, I drill a set. BUT its a monotone board. Sets arent suppose to fear the monotone, the chance he has me beat is slim and i can easly improve with a paird board. Less than 2:1 odds. He makes a generous, but not ridiculous bet. Of course I call. turn is a blank. Again, large, but not ridiculous bet. River comes, a fourth club, plus it gives four to a straight. I want to puke. I want to just puke. I KNOW my set is no longer good. He does NOT like his hand, but that doesn't mean hell fold. He checks. I said no way hes folding to a "bluff" (with a set). I check back, he turns over KJ clubs. Bro drilled a flush on the flop. He was scared, He feared the ace. But theres no way he was folding that. My instinct was right. I shouldn't have even been in the hand.

And with that being said.... as is todays theme. I'm slightly changing my thinking again. I should have folded this. Although, I'm happy it happened. Its interesting and its a good lesson. So, I bought a lesson. Also, again, i find it interesting that he followed GTO bet sizing to a T. Thats not a good player. I dont care what anyone says. That dude that got me with the set of jacks. That dude was a good poker player. People like this. Thats not good. I want to be a GOOD poker player. and when i went off of instinct i was FAR better. I got worse as I learned GTO. Now I'm coming back, using a hybrid of the two. I feel thats the real answer. SO, I guess I had to get worse to get better.

edit: one more story, for balance sake, young skywalker. On the subject of instinct. I had A9 hearts UTG. I raised. HJ three bets me, hes a TAG. I'm gagging over here, but I call. Flop comes all low spades. I have ZERO of this. I dont even think my overs would be good for certain. I check, he bets half pot. I'm like that feels like an AK c bet, or something like along those lines. So I check raised the whole pot, 75% of my stack. He thinks for five seconds and folds. After that he went on minor tilt for 10 hands reraising everyone. Again, zero emotional control. I took a very large portion of his 230bb (or so). He had like 160bb or so left after that. He was NOT happy. (At 50NL PokerStars)

 

[canbora]

I suppose I may as well go ahead and reveal what happened here, I've basically hinted around at it...if not outright blurted it out, I don't even remember at this point. Lol

But .. I made the fold. If that wasn't already obvious.

 

[John A]

Fold pre-flop. As played XR flop. This board is a nightmare for UTG opens. As played, X/C reasonable turn bet. Unlikely you can rep an A and sets would have raised the flop, so you need to play to hit one of your draws and extract on the river.

 

[canbora]

Fold pre-flop. As played XR flop. This board is a nightmare for UTG opens. As played, X/C reasonable turn bet. Unlikely you can rep an A and sets would have raised the flop, so you need to play to hit one of your draws and extract on the river.

Ive gone back and forth on this in my head A LOT. My currently line of thinking is......................its that borderline that I just don't think there is a fully correct answer. Even the solver basically agrees with all three lines of action. You can make an argument for everyone.

I will say this, if the argument is that I shouldn't have been in the hand, I'd make the additional argument that this player should never be engaged unless sensing weakness and trying to steal with the full plan on getting out of the hand, which I had done many many many times. OR if going for stacks, or near stacks, like this clearly was going... unless its an absolute monster or the nuts. Bro was the poster child for nits.

 

[Aballinamion]

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.15/$0.30 - 6 players

UTG: $37.25 (124 bb)
MP: $18.95 (63 bb)
CO: $51.80 (173 bb)
BU: $19.68 (66 bb)
SB (Hero): $36.76 (123 bb)
BB: $51.41 (171 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.45) Hero is SB with T♦ J♦
UTG raises to $0.66, 3 players fold, Hero calls $0.51, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.62) 9♦ 7♣ 6♣ (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.77, Hero calls $0.77

Turn: ($3.16) A♦ (2 players)

------------------------------------------------
Additional villain notes:
[P] 4Bet+ range {AA} (1)
[P] Attempted Steal then 4Bet {AA} (1)

ZERO 3 bets, C bets, fold to C bets, etc. All zero. (ou of 27 sample hands)

basically, bro is SUPER tag. He's like their spokesperson.
----------------------------------------------------

Today was standard for my stakes and region. ULTRA nit. % to see a flop was 6%. I had approx. 250 hands multiabling, a short session. 1/3 of my hands were "won without showdown". I had 3 showdowns, won 1, lost 2. All small pots. I should have been arrested for grand theft larceny.

The reason I called In the SB was because of equilibrium. I knew the villain was a super tag. It was a small UTG raise. He probably had A10 suited?-ish??? Maybe AJ off. Perhaps "bait" for AA. If I hit he would pay me off and I was totally prepared to let this go to a rearise or strong bet. I call. Flop, of course I'm calling this small bet. I have backdoor straight flush and nut gutshot. Normally I'd reraise here, but given the nature of this player, if I'm against an overpair, I'm beat. With a backdoor SF, non-not F, and, gutshhot S. I didn't feel this was warranted enough. Maybe I'm wrong. So I just call. Now the turn brings the Ad. I'm calling any half to pot sized bet. Anything smaller I'm reraising. What does he do??? huge overbet. Now I'm stuck. I did the math. I'm near coin flip to hit 47% on a random hand. 3:1 dog if he has an A. ... which I'm pretty dang sure he does. If not possibly even a set of aces.

Any other player, any type of stronger draw, I'd have no problem pushing back, and or even just cold calling. ...but not this guy

what's proper here, ya think?

I think that we are not calling from the SB quite often. We are basically 3-bet or fold strategy.
The odds are way worst than the BB for calling preflop and once we do it we are inevitably risking a 3-way pot OOP versus at least two other opponents.

 

[canbora]

I think that we are not calling from the SB quite often. We are basically 3-bet or fold strategy.
The odds are way worst than the BB for calling preflop and once we do it we are inevitably risking a 3-way pot OOP versus at least two other opponents.

Yeah. I can't argue with this.

 

[blueskies]

Since you seem to know your opponent's tendencies and you feel like you can stack him if you make a str or flush, I would call a small preflop raise every single time. The implied odds are just too good. As long as you play conservatively if you hit a good but not great hand like a pair, you're gonna be fine.

Bad TAGs are my favorite kind of players to play against. I mean the type that get married to their hands. Perfect player type to call with speculative hands.

Exploitative play imo is far better than GTO at micro stakes. I would rather adjust my play to the specific opponent in a specific hand that adjust my play according to what GTO says I am "supposed" to do X% of the time.

 

[canbora]

Since you seem to know your opponent's tendencies and you feel like you can stack him if you make a str or flush, I would call a small preflop raise every single time. The implied odds are just too good. As long as you play conservatively if you hit a good but not great hand like a pair, you're gonna be fine.

Bad TAGs are my favorite kind of players to play against. I mean the type that get married to their hands. Perfect player type to call with speculative hands.

Exploitative play imo is far better than GTO at micro stakes. I would rather adjust my play to the specific opponent in a specific hand that adjust my play according to what GTO says I am "supposed" to do X% of the time.

LOL,... OK, see, you get me. This is my mindset, philosophy, and MOA.

I took a total break, came back, went back to not only to my jam (MTT PKO's), but my specific favorite one. I got 5th out of 197 entries, did it again tonight. 176 entries I got 12th. Won bounties and place money. I've of course done this countless other times as well as actually won first place in this particular tourney. I have much to learn master Obi Wan, but I dont think I'm a noob idiot either (I know, i know, classic Dunning-Kreuger self evaluation).

Saying that to say this....

After this, I went to the cash tables to several hundred hands, as a hybrid to do my usual recreation play and to further this experiment. I got effing coolered so hard so many times. I'm not whining, its poker. But I lost nearly 3 stacks in less than 38 hands. Like, having the third nuts "we're heads up, what are the chances they have the absolute nuts?" They had them. Or preflop raise battle. I had AK suited. In a cash game we all know what GTO says about AK suited, its like in the top quadrant of hands. Its like number 3. Its always a raise, reraise, call all in - hand. You never fold it. Theres only one hand that truly has it in full trouble, AA.........what did bro have? AA. I could go on. Point is..........that simply IS the point. As I've already stated, people dont HAVE to do anything. And since everyone is a TAG / nit ( i see little difference) no one wants to play unless they have monsters. Like, no one 3 bets unless they have top hands. Its just so boring. Like, I didn't come here to fold for three hours. So in reality. people on average are BETTER players, but few are actually GOOD players.

The betting system is thrown off. People would rather limp in or small raise and call. Then bet the pot, rather than raise it up preflop and bet half pot. As you stated getting married to their hand. I call it panic betting. It triggers fight or flight. Because they dont know what to do when they're K 10 offsuit hits top pair and you call the flop pot bet. They didnt WANT you to call that pot bet. Its more powerful psychologically to call a pot bet even thuogh the moneys problem the same at this point. So what do they do? they fire agian, they're just clicking the "bet pot" button. And you can believe theyll do it again on the river. Three streets of full pot bets. Now you're all in. Unless you truly do have a monster and you feel your V will call......where is there any sense in doing that? There are some, but few circumstances that would warrant such a betting pattern.

So what do I devise? Well.. if everyone overfolds. Take advantage, steal!! So i do!! Huge steal rate. Ok, thats covered. What about MY monster hands? Get what little value I can cuz I'm not going to get crap. Ok... thats fine, but thats still not much. How do I take advantage of this HUGE and OBVIOUS leak of them panic betting? call small to margainal bets. I made a promise to myself that I will ALWAYS call any bet that I have odds for. And thats how I figured out, thats how you break these guys when they go flight or fight with their top pair they cant lay down. You smack bottom two pair. As far as I'm concerned being in button or later with 8 10, or j 10 is a monster. (ever see those memes with premium hands and the person is frowning, but they see 89 suited and they smile? thats me)

6 people calling a min raise and Im in the BB with 35 suited? Sure, I'll call 1 blind to win 12 minimum. flop comes 3 k 5. They hit top pair with their k 10, cant lay it down, I call them down as we get just heads up, the other 4 fold. I crack them. Happend just the other day.

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Edit: I just reread that. What I said sounds sorty bad-ish, but I dont want to change it either. I want to be clear. Despite what it sounds I'm not dumping on cash games or any people. good for all those people that got paid for their monster hands. I bet they were thrilled and had a great time. And If others enjoy this I'm glad. And if you've figured it out, then ill be honest. You're probably better and smarter than me. As I've stated before, I'm ahead... i just cant give myself any credit. I feel like I should be WAYYYY more ahead from what I see of others. Meaning, i'm not very good. Ahead, but not good. So good for yall that are killing. But what I do know is I went back to my "old girlfirned'... tournies. And I loved it. It was fun and intersting, and I did well. It was challenging. And its nice to get the bigger payouts too.

 

[canbora]

I'm making a seperate post for this becuase you I need to say something. lol

sit down, I'm going to say "it"

(deep breathe)

I feel................................................I'd be better playing with better players.

I know I know, I got owned by a better player the other week, if you saw my hand with AA I posted. But do you know why that happened? Because I was unaware that its a common practice for better players to ACTUALLY bet sort of like noobs. If you have something, bet. The "world" I play in, the only way to get anywhere is to value bet everything. See a noob or a maniac would do that same bet to steal. I never dreamed a good player would do that. Because why would they? 99 times out of a hundred you're not getting paid. He did it because he was good and he had a great read on me and he knew I'd pay him.

I'm aware of this now. Its on my radar. I've leveled up my knowledge and used it accordingly. I was playing 100NL last week and did pretty well. Could have done better, I'll be first to admit. That level had me nervous and I really had no reason to be play-wise. I feel it lost me value. So again, lesson learned. But I've done well there before. I've only ever been stacked there once. To be fair too, my sample of play there is smaller too, admittingly

 

[blueskies]

I think what you mean is bad regs (the ones who are predictable and have discernible patterns that they rarely deviate from) are easier to play against. Against the truly bad players luck plays a much larger role because you basically have to have a hand to beat them due to the lack of fold equity. When you running good they are gonna pay you off, but they are also the ones to clean you out when they hit their 4 outer. Regs aren't gonna call huge bets to chase that gutshot, but the bad ones will.

I can say from personal experience that the ones I have lost the biggest pots to are the super LAG types. I don't give them credit for the runner runner but lo and behold they do that have one hand that can beat me.

 

[canbora]

I think what you mean is bad regs (the ones who are predictable and have discernible patterns that they rarely deviate from) are easier to play against. Against the truly bad players luck plays a much larger role because you basically have to have a hand to beat them due to the lack of fold equity. When you running good they are gonna pay you off, but they are also the ones to clean you out when they hit their 4 outer. Regs aren't gonna call huge bets to chase that gutshot, but the bad ones will.

I can say from personal experience that the ones I have lost the biggest pots to are the super LAG types. I don't give them credit for the runner runner but lo and behold they do that have one hand that can beat me.

Well I think they're both bad because the "bad regs" ... you know they have a hand, but so do "we". Soooooooooo..... what do we do? They're predictable, we know they're going to panic bet ever street. So now we have to fold premium hands because they are aren't all in worthy.

And yeah the bad ones call anything. I had both the best and worst runs tonight/yesterday. I am on THE worlds worst cash run EVER in my life. I don't even want to look how many buy ins I just lost in the past 24 hours. NOTHING I do is right. I got outdrawn every single time. . I'm not exaggerating. I haven't won a single hand. Not one. i can't even believe its happening to me. And on the other hand I've placed in every MTT i've been in. So I've gotten my money back, so........lol.......once agqain. I'm "ahead". But I dont even want to look at cash games right now.

I'm taking a break for a bit. I need it. oy vey