$25 NL HE 6-max:

[canbora]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.10/$.25

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.15/$0.30 - 6 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/?hand=425lo3y30

UTG (Hero): $31.69 (106 bb)
MP: $30.00 (100 bb)
CO: $29.47 (98 bb)
BU: $32.69 (109 bb)
SB: $44.33 (148 bb)
BB: $31.67 (106 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.45) Hero is UTG with A♠ A♦
Hero raises to $0.75, 3 players fold, SB calls $0.60, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.80) 3♥ 2♠ 8♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.56, SB calls $0.56

Turn: ($2.92) 5♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.91, SB calls $0.91

River: ($4.74) J♥ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.25, SB raises to $42.11 (all-in), Hero calls $27.22 (all-in)


Would you make this call?

Heres the table. I've been trading paint with two other, what I'll consider considerably good players. Nice guys also. We basically just keep stealing the same 10bb's from each other for 50 hands, even more so with one of the previously players. No one is getting anywhere. We had good table talk. All of us were mostly getting garbage hands and we're all just "trading paint" stealing hands. Mixing it up, squeezing preflop, drawing hands out, stealing on the river. Everything and anything. Despite that, we're all sort of playing the same way, as far as our bets go. I also feel I've avoided some traps from this player too. He's tricky.

So this hand I decided to mix it up, but I keep preflop the same. I get AA. I raise 2.5x. Villain calls in the SB. My C bets have been usually half pot (i was mr. C bet (74%)), but This time I made it third pot. In hindsight, I screwed up. I think it was EXTREMELY obvious what I had. Small flop C bet and a small turn bet. I "wanted" him in the pot. I wanted to seem weak, which is why when he shoved on the river... I THOUGHT... he THOUGHT, I WAS weak, and was trying to steal. But this is so silly.....why not steal as he did before? Why a shove? He knew what I had, I think.

Opinions, PLEASE!

 

[canbora]

My apologies, I had a loading error and my title didnt save now its too late to edit. I was simply going to make it how I started the body of message, "would you make this call with AA"

Since I'm posting..

My obvious other thought was, hey.. he thinks I'm stealing, dude hit a J with ... I dont know J 10 off suit, JQ... he figures I had a small suited connector, maybe A3 suited? And yeah.. I get paid, i get an instant double up, just add pocket aces!!!

 

[NootNoot]

Fold all day long for me, but I'm a somewhat nitty NL2 player and people only make this kind of huge overbet with a very strong hand in that player pool for the most part. Things might be very different at your level. It does look a bit fishy in principle but as you don't have so much invested compared to pot size I'd let it go.

I suppose he could have connected with AJ or KJ on the river if he's really calling with overcards, or turned a diamond flush draw that missed (much less likely because you held the Ad) so I'm thinking he has a set or A4.

KK or QQ should have 3 bet, so should JJ most of the time but I wouldn't completely rule that out.

I could well be way off here but I fold and try to pick another spot to fight.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I'm folding & I'm thinking he has 64s, 22, 33, 88

If it was QJ, JTo, why would they CRAI on the river here? What are they hoping to get value from? What better hand is folding?

Honestly it's not easy for me to assess the situation because you've mentioned 'good table talk' so I don't really know what or how this game typically plays out. Is this a Live Home Game?

 

[Station_Master]

Flop cbet is ok, I would probably go bigger as villain cold called from SB rather than BB. It's on the turn your sizing is way too small, should be sizing up.

On the river what are you hoping to get called by, presumably 77, 98 etc. So I think 50% is fine, your hand is strong but still only one pair. The all in is wierd as you would expect a set to raise earlier and maybe JJ would have 3bet pre. There are not a lot of logical Jx 2 pairs either. So on the one hand it looks suspicious but on the other hand if he was bluffing would he really just put his while stack in? I probably fold here as it's an underbluffed spot and sizing.

 

[canbora]

Fold all day long for me, but I'm a somewhat nitty NL2 player and people only make this kind of huge overbet with a very strong hand in that player pool for the most part. Things might be very different at your level. It does look a bit fishy in principle but as you don't have so much invested compared to pot size I'd let it go.

I suppose he could have connected with AJ or KJ on the river if he's really calling with overcards, or turned a diamond flush draw that missed (much less likely because you held the Ad) so I'm thinking he has a set or A4.

KK or QQ should have 3 bet, so should JJ most of the time but I wouldn't completely rule that out.

I could well be way off here but I fold and try to pick another spot to fight.

Its so weird becuase... how do I explain this... when you go up levels its 9/10's the same game, just slightly different. Ya know? I play up to 50NL regularly, sometimes punch up to 100NL when I'm froggy. And its maaaaaaainly the same thing just very subtle differences every time you bump up. These two guys were definitely good enough to be playing higher stakes FOR SURE. But its all relative. Its not like as soon as you bump up the people are so good your money magicaly disappers. Its the same game, there's just more trickery. I've seen people who bet, raise, and reraise, with absolute zilch because they know eachothers GTO ranges so well. But its all relative to who you're playing. We often get very low stakes playing up and you can always tell who they are. And honestly, they get taken right away if they're a maniac, if they aren't, they get bled slowly, but I digress. Yeah its weird. its weird 100%. It makes no sense. But like I said, we traded paint for 50 hands. Someone had to start getting tricky. Like I said, I think he knew my exact hand. Guy was good.

I'm folding & I'm thinking he has 64s, 22, 33, 88

If it was QJ, JTo, why would they CRAI on the river here? What are they hoping to get value from? What better hand is folding?

Honestly it's not easy for me to assess the situation because you've mentioned 'good table talk' so I don't really know what or how this game typically plays out. Is this a Live Home Game?

Oh no, this is poker stars. Friendly guy. It was manly us three trading paint. Sometimes someone would pop in for a hand or two but they'd sit out or leave. We traded the same 10BBs back and forth for over 50 hands. What he had may shock you.

Flop cbet is ok, I would probably go bigger as villain cold called from SB rather than BB. It's on the turn your sizing is way too small, should be sizing up.

On the river what are you hoping to get called by, presumably 77, 98 etc. So I think 50% is fine, your hand is strong but still only one pair. The all in is wierd as you would expect a set to raise earlier and maybe JJ would have 3bet pre. There are not a lot of logical Jx 2 pairs either. So on the one hand it looks suspicious but on the other hand if he was bluffing would he really just put his while stack in? I probably fold here as it's an underbluffed spot and sizing.

Fully agree and the entire time I would be doing that. Like I was saying this was the one hand I was mixing up. And I also announced it was my last hand. I forgot to mention that. I cursed myself lol. It made me think even more he just wants to steal, but it still makes no sense, why cram? I was trying to feign weakness the whole time and j ust get some value out of my aces. Ive found if someone thinks you're weak they'll try to push you out, which is exactly what I'd had hoped for. But I think he knew EXACTLY what I had. The chap was good.

 

[canbora]

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.15/$0.30 - 6 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/?hand=425lo3y30

UTG (Hero): $31.69 (106 bb)
MP: $30.00 (100 bb)
CO: $29.47 (98 bb)
BU: $32.69 (109 bb)
SB: $44.33 (148 bb)
BB: $31.67 (106 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.45) Hero is UTG with A♠ A♦
Hero raises to $0.75, 3 players fold, SB calls $0.60, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.80) 3♥ 2♠ 8♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.56, SB calls $0.56

Turn: ($2.92) 5♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.91, SB calls $0.91

River: ($4.74) J♥ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.25, SB raises to $42.11 (all-in), Hero calls $27.22 (all-in)

I go in the tank for half the timer. I said, "this is probably a bad call, NH." I call. Villain turns over JJ, for a set of jacks on the river. I said see, I need to stay away from you two. He said "no you're not that bad, that was just a crap sandwhich." i laughed and said "fair enough, you gentleman have a good day." And left. I feel he knew exactly what I had, an over pair. And he knew there was a chance I'd call. Like any good trap, I wasn't afraid, I was curious. And I thought, no way way he knows I have aces, this is my chance for a free stack. Lesson purchased at the price of a full stack.

I went ahead and typed the results here what happened. If anyone cares to see. You wont be happy with me, quite frankly, neither am I. lol

 

[Station_Master]

I went ahead and typed the results here what happened. If anyone cares to see. You wont be happy with me, quite frankly, neither am I. lol

Not a huge surprise, though you should take a note that he didnt 3bet it pre and hence if he ever 3bets you SB v UTG fold alot!

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Assuming you always open to 2,5BB, at least from this seat, this is of course very standard.

Flop
Before deciding on our action here, its time to first look at the situation and make a plan for the hand as described in the CC 30 day course, which I will link to below. The first part of the plan is to answer the question "how many bets", and here my answer would be 3 bets. You have the nut overpair, and there are certainly worse hands, that can call, if you go bet, bet, bet. Like maybe 99-JJ or 98s.

Of course if the board runout is terrible like putting a 1-liner to a straight, then we can change the plan to 2 bets and check back river or fold to a donk bet. Now having said 3 bets also mean, we are not willing to stack off, unless we improve to for instance top set. It is important to make this decision right now, so we dont get caught wrong-footed, if we get raised at some point in the hand. And the main reason for this is SPR, which with 15 is way to deep to get it in with a single pair. As a rule of thump you need an SPR of 6 or less, before you get it in against an unknown with just one pair.

The last thing to take note off already is the fact, we got called from SB. Compared to a BB call this should be a much more narrow and defined range, since he is not closing the action and getting a worse price. Typically we should expect a lot of low to medium pocket pairs and maybe some strong suited hands, but not much else. Which is also important to keep in mind throughout the hand.

With all this out of the way, its time to decide on a bet sizing. This is not a flop, we are going to be range betting, and for that reason I lean towards a larger sizing like 2/3 pot. He is not going to fold any pocket pair to that sizing, and if he has a hand like KJs, he is likely going to fold even to a small bet. So I find just taking it down against those hands but getting more money in against his 77 or 99, before future cards kill our action.

Turn
Pretty large brick, and once again I would prefer a larger sizing like 2/3 pot for the reasons already stated.

River
This is actually a bad card, because it puts pressure on the hands, you are trying to get value from. Therefore it does not make sense to size up now. If you had gotten more money in on the previous streets, this would be the time to size down and give him a price, which he can call with second or third pair. He check-jam, which is a massive overbet. And here the decision to fold should have been very easy, because that plan should have been made already on the flop. You only beat a bluff, and the vast majority of the time he is going to show you a set or sometimes a straight.

 

[canbora]

Preflop
Assuming you always open to 2,5BB, at least from this seat, this is of course very standard.

Flop
Before deciding on our action here, its time to first look at the situation and make a plan for the hand as described in the CC 30 day course, which I will link to below. The first part of the plan is to answer the question "how many bets", and here my answer would be 3 bets. You have the nut overpair, and there are certainly worse hands, that can call, if you go bet, bet, bet. Like maybe 99-JJ or 98s.

Of course if the board runout is terrible like putting a 1-liner to a straight, then we can change the plan to 2 bets and check back river or fold to a donk bet. Now having said 3 bets also mean, we are not willing to stack off, unless we improve to for instance top set. It is important to make this decision right now, so we dont get caught wrong-footed, if we get raised at some point in the hand. And the main reason for this is SPR, which with 15 is way to deep to get it in with a single pair. As a rule of thump you need an SPR of 6 or less, before you get it in against an unknown with just one pair.

The last thing to take note off already is the fact, we got called from SB. Compared to a BB call this should be a much more narrow and defined range, since he is not closing the action and getting a worse price. Typically we should expect a lot of low to medium pocket pairs and maybe some strong suited hands, but not much else. Which is also important to keep in mind throughout the hand.

With all this out of the way, its time to decide on a bet sizing. This is not a flop, we are going to be range betting, and for that reason I lean towards a larger sizing like 2/3 pot. He is not going to fold any pocket pair to that sizing, and if he has a hand like KJs, he is likely going to fold even to a small bet. So I find just taking it down against those hands but getting more money in against his 77 or 99, before future cards kill our action.

Turn
Pretty large brick, and once again I would prefer a larger sizing like 2/3 pot for the reasons already stated.

River
This is actually a bad card, because it puts pressure on the hands, you are trying to get value from. Therefore it does not make sense to size up now. If you had gotten more money in on the previous streets, this would be the time to size down and give him a price, which he can call with second or third pair. He check-jam, which is a massive overbet. And here the decision to fold should have been very easy, because that plan should have been made already on the flop. You only beat a bluff, and the vast majority of the time he is going to show you a set or sometimes a straight.

Thank you, VERY much. I appreciate all of this and you are correct. Ill take any free lessons vs the ones I'm buying with my stack. lol. I'm glad to get more clarification on the things you said because I've already vaguely started to figure some of those things out for myself simply through trial and error. But its good to lock them in. Thank you.

Another thing is I've noticed "better" more pro players will play this highly aggressive line and play EXACTLY like this. I was aware, but unprepared for it at this level. This guy was clearly too good for these stakes. My style, which was for my stakes in my region, is to steal a lot, bet for value a lot. Everyone is a super nit and we do not get value from premium hands, most profits are from stealing. Or the occasional monster vs monster hand. And just pray you have the bigger monster.

Yesterday for some reason was inane. It was all maniacs. I had a hand yesterday that I'm not upset about. LJ vs HJ. I had AK off, i raised 3x. He calls. Flop comes As 7s 3d. I lead out half pot c bet. He jams his whole stack, completely unwarranted, but "normal" for yesterday, if that makes any sense. I thought for a second...what could he possibly have that he'd do this here?? Im like, hes got two spades. So I call. He turns over K2 spades. Turn brings a spade. I'm done. I'm not upset about that. We had a guy call two all ins with 5 2 offsuit. It was an INSANE day.

Not a huge surprise, though you should take a note that he didnt 3bet it pre and hence if he ever 3bets you SB v UTG fold alot!

1000%. Its my fault and I know and own that. My ONLY justification was like I said. This was a paint-trading session, and it was a necessity to mix things up and bring in trickery. I feel i was a match for these two gentlemen, but they were clearly better than me. They beat me.

There's no way he could have known I had AA preflop, I think HE was trapping ME, thats why no three bet. But on the flop, I think It was sort of clear what was going on (to him) , and if not, then by the turn for sure. Just a guess. Who knows.

 

[fundiver199]

I went ahead and typed the results here what happened. If anyone cares to see. You wont be happy with me, quite frankly, neither am I. lol

You played the hand fine linewise except, that you should have folded to that check-jam on the river. At these stakes a massive overbet on the river is typically not a balanced line. Its heavily skewed towards nut hands trying to take advantage of the fact, that some players cant fold a overpair. Which you have a lot of the time after opening UTG and firing all streets postflop.

As for the opponent he played his JJ perfect avoiding to overplay it on the early streets and getting max value, when he binked top set on the river. He probably correctly figured out, that you rarely have 64 or A4 after opening UGT. Maybe you can have A4s, but thats only 4 combos and would likely have bet bigger on the turn. Few people will go just 1/3 pot, when they have the essential nuts.

So to be honest you got owned here. And as I said before you might want to invest in some software and training, if you want to play stakes as relatively high as 30NL. And there is also no shame in moving down to 10NL and get some more practice there. Mistakes like the one, you made here, are less costly at lower stakes.

 

[canbora]

You played the hand fine linewise except, that you should have folded to that check-jam on the river. At these stakes a massive overbet on the river is typically not a balanced line. Its heavily skewed towards nut hands trying to take advantage of the fact, that some players cant fold a overpair. Which you have a lot of the time after opening UTG and firing all streets postflop.

As for the opponent he played his JJ perfect avoiding to overplay it on the early streets and getting max value, when he binked top set on the river. He probably correctly figured out, that you rarely have 64 or A4 after opening UGT. Maybe you can have A4s, but thats only 4 combos and would likely have bet bigger on the turn. Few people will go just 1/3 pot, when they have the essential nuts.

So to be honest you got owned here. And as I said before you might want to invest in some software and training, if you want to play stakes as relatively high as 30NL. And there is also no shame in moving down to 10NL and get some more practice there. Mistakes like the one, you made here, are less costly at lower stakes.

I couldnt post here in this thread for like a day, weird. lol

Anyway. You may not believe this, I'm actually not only ahead this week, but QUITE ahead. Did I make mistakes? Absolutely. But I've played thousands of hands this week. And I've made A LOT of lay downs, including ove rpairs. You're only seeing like, what, a few hands here I'm talking about, out of thousands. You have to figure, counting Jacks or better, including AK... thats 5 premium hands.. I've probably had these hands 40-50 times this week alone. I'd be broke if this happened every time.

And yeah, he did play that perfectly. He did.
He even admitted, and I believe him, that when it was three handed with us... that he had garbage and was raising every other hand. We had great table talk. I said I'm card dead right now, pure rags. He's like yah same here but you have to play them. And hes right, GTO will never say that, but what are you suppose to do? Not play?

Which is why when I was in the BB and he was in the SB and he raised me, I three bet him to steal with pocket 4's. GTO does not recommend this. I mean.. what is "right" ... "correct" ?? I dont know. I'm not saying I have the answers, thats why I'm talking this out. im trying to learn. Ill bet all these super nit TAGs who are folding all of the time think they're playing "right" too. But I'll guarantee the bar for "folds to stealing the blinds" is slid al the way to the right. Is that correct?

OH!! and who only bets third pot when they have the nuts (raises hand) lol. I do it ALL the time. When you have the nuts, its a blocker to them. They obviously dont, so what are they calling with? I try to extract as much value as possible. Which Is why I play the same MOST times to disguise the strength of my hand. I WANT them too call and I say to myself, how much can I bet and they call with? I also like to be what I call the arbiter of chaos when I'm on the button and theres like a 6 way limp pot and I have like KJ offsuit. You should probably fold, at best call and fold but.. no. i PROBABLY have the best hand or one of these, I min raise. I force everyone to throw in an extra blind to richen the pot to induce action. If I do have the best hand, which I usuauly do, I get something of value to take down. I usually do this in tournies, but I did it last night at my cash table because I had a rec player and a limp-maniac (f that makes sense) with occasionally a come and go rec player in the 6th seat. So we had lots of limped pots last night. I was on the
button with A5 offsuit. Yeah.. I'm seeing the flop. Flop came 5K5. I took it down at the river for a nice little pot by the maniac.

Sorry this is so long. btw.

lastly, I do have software. I LOVE gto wizard mobile. Its so fun to use. I have several programs downloaded that I use daily and use my free limit up, every day. I also have poker tracker. Honestly, I dont like it. Its a distraction and once even cost me my stack because the overlay blocked the top players bet that I didnt see. Ive noticed it also doesnt take some very important information that it should have with players. I dont think its that good, honestly. its also clunky, unattactive, and not user friendly. I dont see the appeal. But GTO wizard, LOVE IT!

I always appreciate your knowledge and insight, sir. thank you


edit, also, its also possible, that for this hand... he was in fact trying to steal. Add up the pot at the end, thats 1/5th of a stack in the pot. In a session where were trading the same 10 bb's or so for 3o minutes, thats a nice little take down. That he could have pulled with either pure garbage, or QJ or so. Even though I still should have folded, 100%... The more I think about it the less crazy I think it is that I called. He could have EASILY been doing this. And Now that I think of it. I dont think what he did was perfect. Kings, aces,.......sure. But queens and jacks........I could have EASLY had Ax, Kx, Q x and paired. was he really willing to lay down jacks in this session? .........maybe. I cant say thats a good play. He gambled, so did I.....he won, I lost.

Its fun to talk about this stuff.......Ive cashed out my "sit down money" and I'm going to reflect on all of this for a while. Do some more training, Go back to the jedi temple and have obi wan run me through some drills before I return to the table. Since I've started my cash game journey, I've improved exponentially and I plan on continuing to do so.

 

[John A]

Bet turn larger. River is fine, but you need to fold. Your population at these stakes under bluffs on this line, and river XR's in general. Plus, he's in the SB so that board hits him pretty good. If he bluffed you in this spot.. good for him.

 

[canbora]

Bet turn larger. River is fine, but you need to fold. Your population at these stakes under bluffs on this line, and river XR's in general. Plus, he's in the SB so that board hits him pretty good. If he bluffed you in this spot.. good for him.

He wasn't bluffing. I made the call. He had a set of J's.

You're right, generally most do under bluff. But at this table, this session, this player (all three of us even) we all did LOTS of bluffing. So, it was the norm here.

 

[fundiver199]

But at this table, this session, this player (all three of us even) we all did LOTS of bluffing. So, it was the norm here.

That might be, but even so there will usually be a difference between a river bet of say 10-30BB and 2/3 pot and an overbet jam for 100BB, when the opponent has shown nothing but strength. If he was bluffing here, the risk reward is absolutely terrible with him risking around 30$ to pick up a pot of 7,5$, meaning it would need to work 80% of the time.

Overbetting the river for value is a classic low stakes exploit described in "crushing the microstakes", and even today many people still do it. In my humble opinion you will need to be against full time professional players in a high stakes game to find anyone, who has a balanced range, when they take a line like this. Or at least that is my two cents based on many years of experience with online poker

 

[canbora]

That might be, but even so there will usually be a difference between a river bet of say 10-30BB and 2/3 pot and an overbet jam for 100BB, when the opponent has shown nothing but strength. If he was bluffing here, the risk reward is absolutely terrible with him risking around 30$ to pick up a pot of 7,5$, meaning it would need to work 80% of the time.

Overbetting the river for value is a classic low stakes exploit described in "crushing the microstakes", and even today many people still do it. In my humble opinion you will need to be against full time professional players in a high stakes game to find anyone, who has a balanced range, when they take a line like this. Or at least that is my two cents based on many years of experience with online poker

Yeah... I'm just explaining how "we" got here. Not saying it was the correct action. It clearly wasn't.

And I was completely unaware of this crushing micro stakes-thing. Starting from the poker boom until now, in some way shape or form, I've always been a tourney player and have done well. I've been a rec at cash games at best. Just playing to mess around here and there for fun, and I'm about at break even skill level. My current journey is to now be a profitable cash game player and I'm learning what people do and why. And from what I'm seeing, its a lot of customs. In other words, its whats done, why its done, and WHERE its done. This same hand if played at 2NL would be done for different reasons at 2NL, vs 25(30)NL, and at 500NL. And its easier to evaluate like this now. But at the time, it seemed reasonable for him to steal. He could have had KJ, he could have had a pocket mid pair. He may have thought I had overs and was just trying to push him out. ... you dont know what people think. And it was still only 50 hands that I ''knew"this guy.

I dont know.... I'm just running in circles at this point. Main take away is, people do "this". I now know why, and I was cautious from this point forward and I did not repeat this mistake. I had laid down many over pairs when i was beat. Although I'll say this, he was the ONLY person who played like this that I've ran across so far. Even the other "good" guy was more of a TAG. The guy seemed like he was in the wrong pond. Definitely one of the best I've come across yet.

 

[John A]

He wasn't bluffing. I made the call. He had a set of J's.

You're right, generally most do under bluff. But at this table, this session, this player (all three of us even) we all did LOTS of bluffing. So, it was the norm here.

It's easier when you look at it this way. If he was bluffing, what hands would he be trying to push me off of, and what's the min sizing he'd need to raise for that to happen? If it's significantly over that, you can be pretty confident that the raise is for value at these stakes. Higher stakes, it gets a bit more complicated.

 

[Station_Master]

It's easier when you look at it this way. If he was bluffing, what hands would he be trying to push me off of, and what's the min sizing he'd need to raise for that to happen? If it's significantly over that, you can be pretty confident that the raise is for value at these stakes. Higher stakes, it gets a bit more complicated.

That's a nice way to look at it, as why bluff more than necessary to get the folds you want when bluffing. I also fall into the trap of calling overbet thinking my opponent is polarised but it's almost always value!

 

[canbora]

It's easier when you look at it this way. If he was bluffing, what hands would he be trying to push me off of, and what's the min sizing he'd need to raise for that to happen? If it's significantly over that, you can be pretty confident that the raise is for value at these stakes. Higher stakes, it gets a bit more complicated.

Honestly? I THOUGHT, he THOUGHT I had overs, like AQ or something, and was just trying to push him off the pot. I THOUGHT he THOUGHT, I was weak and was doing this, and he was just pushing me out of the pot at the river. Again, a whole stack, to steal nearly a third, didnt seem fully ridiculous. What else would you do? anything smalerl and nearly the whole stack is in anyway. And to get reraised would just be sick. SO you do a full shove to make them make a "yes or no" decision. And I figured he did this vs a big raise was ... to mix it up. Just like we've been doing. Again, we traded paint over and over and over again. Something had to give. One of us had to fall eventually. I guess that someone was me lol.

I didnt think he thought I had a big over pair. Its also reasonable, he had KJ and maybe he thought I had a J as well and wanted to push me out. I see people do that panic bet all the time. Again, I only "knew" the guy for 50 hands. I dont know his full profile. He was just a better player. I wasn't FULLY aware of that until this hand.

And I fully realize we can go from my opponents opinion.. hahaha... but, just assuming we do, and assuming hes being fair or honest, as I said, he even said that was a crap sammich.

I obviously know he could be just "feeding the fish" here, as i say.

again... its just all in circles at this point. This was a $30 lesson that I bought and I'm making good use of my purchase. I never did it again. I've actually come to realize that in cash games, overpairs really aren't that great. Its better to have top top because then you take other cards out of contention. When you have a overpair, the whole board is there to get more dynamic. Its usuaslly bad news bears most of the time I'm finding. In tournies its great because you useually get into a reraise match, its one person, you're two short stacks all in, and you double up. In cash games about full stacks, long term, for thousands and thousands and thousands of hands, its long term odds. Its more difficult.

 

[gustav197poker]

Preflop
The best hand preflop. Here the aperture is a little big for your range. A 2.2x or 2.3x size is better. Although if your aperture from UTG is normally 2.5x, there is no problem with that.

Flop
It has more impact on the V's range. Therefore a larger bet is recommended. Here the size could be 0.75.
As played the size is good, because you are compensating for an opening that from UTG is at the limit.

Turn
Here you continue with your linear bet, but I like your size better because you are representing a wider range. Your V seems to also have a similar appreciation and calls you again.

River
J of heart, a slightly neutral card, although it favors you more.
From the ratio you choosed, it seems like you want your opponent to simply call. If that's the case, you should bet around 1/4 pot.
When V raise/jam you have a critical situation. If you want to catch this V it is better to do it with a hand like QQ, because with your hand you block many Axs hands that could be used as bluffs. You also have the A of diamond, which is better that your opponent to have, to catch failed flush draws.

 

[gustav197poker]

I see your opponent had JJ. Well, that means he has the assurance that you won't fold after making 3 bets. He has the conditions to do so, because as I said before "his range does not include Js". Imagine a situation where he floats w/ 3 bets yours with a hand like AJ (very unlikely, except for the AJdd combo sometime, but now impossible). However, if he is a competent player like you describe, he understood your message: "Hey, I'm making range bets and I don't need to make big sizes, since I have the advantage of my range." Against that, you must pay when you have the best bluff catcher possible.
Note that when V calls on the flop and turn, the probability that he played slow strong hands like sets decreases considerably. He frankly played well but he also had a lot of luck on the river.

 

[canbora]

I see your opponent had JJ. Well, that means he has the assurance that you won't fold after making 3 bets. He has the conditions to do so, because as I said before "his range does not include Js". Imagine a situation where he floats w/ 3 bets yours with a hand like AJ (very unlikely, except for the AJdd combo sometime, but now impossible). However, if he is a competent player like you describe, he understood your message: "Hey, I'm making range bets and I don't need to make big sizes, since I have the advantage of my range." Against that, you must pay when you have the best bluff catcher possible.
Note that when V calls on the flop and turn, the probability that he played slow strong hands like sets decreases considerably. He frankly played well but he also had a lot of luck on the river.

Yeah. I've been thinking about this a lot obviously. And while it was still wrong... it wasn't as ridiculous as I original thought. .. I must have instinctively known this, hence why I made the call. It wasn't a snap call, I was in the tank for quite a while and my gut reaction was to fold, instantly. As soon as he shoved, I immediately said to myself "fold". I just wanted to evaluate to make sure. And I said, this is probably a bad call. But I just truly felt "he doesn't know I have an over pair" .....like I just felt, it wasn't ridiculous to call.

And I did run this through the solver and yeah... what I just said was spot on. Aces says 15 call (85 fold). So, While predominantly fold, its not 100%. Oddly enough, AJ suited is 99.6. KJ suited is right behind it. and AJ off suit is at 13.4 . A set of 8's is only 58.8, a set of 2's are 35.5. A4 suited and JJ are 100% call.

 

[fundiver199]

And I did run this through the solver and yeah... what I just said was spot on. Aces says 15 call (85 fold). So, While predominantly fold, its not 100%. Oddly enough, AJ suited is 99.6. KJ suited is right behind it. and AJ off suit is at 13.4 . A set of 8's is only 58.8, a set of 2's are 35.5. A4 suited and JJ are 100% call.

The solver calculates the equlibrium, or if you will, it plays against itself. This mean, that all ranges are always balanced. And this is why, we get results, where blockers are sometimes more important than absolute hand strenght. The fact, the solver dont even always call with 88 or 22 but sometimes call with AA is likely a result of the fact, that 88 or 22 is not even in the value showing range, because otherwise it would make no sense to call with AA but fold 88. If you dig down into the details, its likely the suits, which determine, when AA is called.

However as many of us have said, very few human players at stakes like 30NL or lower find the bluffs, that the solver find. And therefore its really not nessesary to defend 100% "correctly" and make that occational call with AA. Without having run the sim maybe the solver use hands like 98s or JTs as check-raise bluffs, because they can sometimes win at showdown, if it goes check-check, but when you bet again, they dont win often enough to justify a call. But most humans dont turn made hands into check-raise bluffs. They either fold or call.

 

[canbora]

The solver calculates the equlibrium, or if you will, it plays against itself. This mean, that all ranges are always balanced. And this is why, we get results, where blockers are sometimes more important than absolute hand strenght. The fact, the solver dont even always call with 88 or 22 but sometimes call with AA is likely a result of the fact, that 88 or 22 is not even in the value showing range, because otherwise it would make no sense to call with AA but fold 88. If you dig down into the details, its likely the suits, which determine, when AA is called.

However as many of us have said, very few human players at stakes like 30NL or lower find the bluffs, that the solver find. And therefore its really not nessesary to defend 100% "correctly" and make that occational call with AA. Without having run the sim maybe the solver use hands like 98s or JTs as check-raise bluffs, because they can sometimes win at showdown, if it goes check-check, but when you bet again, they dont win often enough to justify a call. But most humans dont turn made hands into check-raise bluffs. They either fold or call.

I'd honestly have to go check about the the suits of the aces. I remember looking at that, I just simply don't remember what it said, and I can't look now because I've used up my allowance for the day LOL.

I do know that the suits of the ace Jack and King Jack mattered, for sure. And they alternated. It wasn't the same for both of them, which was interesting I thought.

 

[Aballinamion]

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.15/$0.30 - 6 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/?hand=425lo3y30

UTG (Hero): $31.69 (106 bb)
MP: $30.00 (100 bb)
CO: $29.47 (98 bb)
BU: $32.69 (109 bb)
SB: $44.33 (148 bb)
BB: $31.67 (106 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.45) Hero is UTG with A♠ A♦
Hero raises to $0.75, 3 players fold, SB calls $0.60, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.80) 3♥ 2♠ 8♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.56, SB calls $0.56

Turn: ($2.92) 5♦ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.91, SB calls $0.91

River: ($4.74) J♥ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.25, SB raises to $42.11 (all-in), Hero calls $27.22 (all-in)


Would you make this call?

Heres the table. I've been trading paint with two other, what I'll consider considerably good players. Nice guys also. We basically just keep stealing the same 10bb's from each other for 50 hands, even more so with one of the previously players. No one is getting anywhere. We had good table talk. All of us were mostly getting garbage hands and we're all just "trading paint" stealing hands. Mixing it up, squeezing preflop, drawing hands out, stealing on the river. Everything and anything. Despite that, we're all sort of playing the same way, as far as our bets go. I also feel I've avoided some traps from this player too. He's tricky.

So this hand I decided to mix it up, but I keep preflop the same. I get AA. I raise 2.5x. Villain calls in the SB. My C bets have been usually half pot (i was mr. C bet (74%)), but This time I made it third pot. In hindsight, I screwed up. I think it was EXTREMELY obvious what I had. Small flop C bet and a small turn bet. I "wanted" him in the pot. I wanted to seem weak, which is why when he shoved on the river... I THOUGHT... he THOUGHT, I WAS weak, and was trying to steal. But this is so silly.....why not steal as he did before? Why a shove? He knew what I had, I think.

Opinions, PLEASE!

If you think villain is a weak player we call this every time. If we think villain is a decent player we must fold.
There aren't many logic combos that have us beat, part of the sequences we are removing, and villain's line of calling seem very strong.
However, a weak player could easily throw up some river jam having a top pair with jacks specially.